medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

I know this is a nitpicky observation on what is a complex strain of conversation, but don't you think that calling the representation of the merovingian kings in Gregory of Tours "priest-kings" is a bit of an overstatement?  At least in the 10 books of History (history of the Franks if you prefer) any sort of manifestation of this type is only briefly mentioned once (in concern with King Guntram) in the entire 600+ pages.  Gregory is much more inclined to be of the opinion that Kings should stay in their place...which is out of the hair of the church...and certainly does not seem to invest any sort of "priestly" air to them.

Stacy

----- Original Message -----
From: "J.S. Plant" <[log in to unmask]>
Date: Monday, October 28, 2002 5:34 am
Subject: A spiritual meaning for the name Plantagenet

> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and
> culture
> > >
> > > "J.S. Plant" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> > >
> > > This famous nickname occurs as Plantegenest...and as Plante
> > > Genest...The most likely explanation is the traditional one, that
> > > Geoffrey was accustomed to wear a sprig of broom (planta genista)
> > > in his cap or helmet ...
> > >
> > > My view that Plant has a "soul implant" or "child" meaning....
> > >
> > > Such a "soul implant" set of senses can be extended....
> > >
> > > The historically important name Planteveleu then could mean an
> > > "implant(er) of the hairy" since, according to the contemporary
> > > scholastic Scotus Erigena, hair contained vegetative life. A
> > > similar tradition may have survived for Plantagenet -- the sprig
> > > of broom is hairy and, according to the Middle English Agnus
> > > Castus, the "vertue" of broom is that it knits together broken
> > > bones and sinews (which also were believed to contain vegetative
> > > life)....
> >
> >
> > Christopher Crocket replied:
> >
> > the sorting out of the origins of _cognomen_ and surnames is
> > certainly a facinating game, albeit a frequently frustrating one.
> >
> > i've played a bit of it in connection with some prosopgraphical
> > work i've done on families in the Chartrain region in the 11th-13th
> > centuries. ...
> >
> > "Canard -- il semble bien qu'on ait affaire ici une m=E9taphore
> > avec le canard (peut-=EAtre en raison du dandinement
> > ["waddling"])."
> >
> > to me, this explanation --rather obvious as it is-- is simply "trop
> > facile."
> >
> > and, forgive me, your own attempt at finding a "spiritual meaning"
> > to your Plantegenests is on the other extreme : trop compliqu=E9.
> >
> > now (and here's where i *really* part company with your etymology),
> > we must keep in mind that these guys were, first and foremost and
> > especially in the earlier periods, soldiers-warriors-knights, ...
> > the evidence from later periods certainly suggests that
> > heraldry-related things were very important, ... so, i'd say
> > (unencumbered by any definitive proof at hand) that my
> > "Chenard[e]s", like your Broomsprig Wearers, took their name from
> > their heraldic devices, perhaps originating in the wearing of
> > distinctive sprigs of this or that in their helms.
> >
> > ... their [name] origins were, i'm afraid, much, much more mundane.
>
> Dear Christopher,
>
> I appreciate your reply. It is interesting that you too favour a
> herbal heraldic device. Perhaps I may pursue my argument a little
> further.
>
> My generalisation of the etymology for Plantagenet to include other
> Plant-like names does not preclude heraldic devices (the Plantagenets
> had many). Rather I am seeking to answer what was special about the
> planta genista (there is a little debatable evidence for an emblem
> that looks rather as though it might be a sprig of broom). In
> particular, why is the Plantagenet name the same as that particular
> heraldic badge?
>
> I agree that name meanings should be mundane. Mundane to a medieval
> mind that is. For Plant-like names, we need to "unlearn" many
> centuries of post-Renaissance science, looking for clues in clever
> scholastic writings, to try to reconstruct the beliefs of the
> medieval herbarius etc. which, despite the intellectual challenge of
> our task, may take us back to ideas thae were mundane at the time
> (albeit not for us).
>
> Certainly there was nothing new about spiritual powers in herbs.
> Herbals from as early as ancient Greek times were concerned with (i)
> the practical purposes of plants and (ii) the "pre-science theory"
> that all living things contained soul. Even Aquinas called plants the
> first principal of life, in the times of more advanced scholastic
> belief in the vegetative (plant), sensory (animal), and rational
> (human) aspects of the soul -- perhaps such "advanced" details are
> "too clever" for name etymology but the basic idea of the spiritual,
> e.g. healing, powers of plants appears to have been both ancient and
> mundane.
>
> In the 12th century, there were a variety of illustrated books --
> herbals, bestials, lapidiaries. The underlying "physical"
> observations were little changed from Pliny's Natural History but
> considerable efforts were being made to extend "spiritual"
> moralisations from uptodate authors like Gerald of Wales and Peter of
> Cornwall. The De Naturis Rerum of Alexander Nequam (1157-1217), for
> example, was a collection of spiritual interpretations of natural
> phenomena -- a comment in it preface betrays its emphasis "I do not
> wish the reader to think that I am investigating the nature of things
> in order to write a philisophical work: I am writing a moral [that is
> to say allegorical] treatise." It seems that "spiritual meaning" was
> more mundane than any interest, per se, in identifying a particular
> emblem as the species planta genista.
>
> Moreover, the Merovingian priest-kings were ascribed miraculous
> healing powers by Gregory of Tours, illustrating a long tradition for
> "noble" healing powers. It is for such reasons that I am inclined to
> believe that the "spiritual" healing powers of the broom plant are
> likely to underly its signficance. Being healed is one of the basic
> desiderata of life in any age though the empasis has changed somewhat
> from spiritual healing to biochemical function. Such changes in
> emphasis make it more difficult for us to understand sense to the
> 13th century name Plantefolie, for example, as an "implanter of
> contrition of sin". Dare I suggest that modern etymolygists etc. are
> inclined to leave out the (medieval mundane) anagogical part of the
> explanation simply because it is a little difficult to get across to
> modern minds?
>
> With best regards,
>
> John
>
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