medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Scott Matthews <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Yes I overstated the case about socio-economic factors, but apparently modern
dynamics (e.g. commercialisation, urbanisation, specialisation, etc.) were
present to the Middle Ages in ways that appear to have been deeply unsettling
at all levels of society. (Arguably, no less disturbing then than now!)
actually, i'm on the fence, on this one.
and i'm comming at it from my worm's eye view --the Chartrain in the period
1050-1250 or so, when "commercialisation, urbanisation, specialisation" did,
indeed, transform the lives of quite a lot of folks.
not necessarily a large *percentage* of the population, however, since i still
kling to my Fundamental Belief :
viz., that, even by 1250, the *vast* majority of the population was where it
had always been and would, indeed, remain until the agricultural revolution of
the later 19th century --out on the land, Working themselves to Death growing
food for everybody else.
but, to a certain extent, these folks just don't count.
in the sense that they've left virtually nothing of themselves for us to get
to know them save for a very meager archeological record.
(except, perhaps, in the unusually fertile Oral traditions of Francine's
Ireland.)
"commercialisation, urbanisation, specialisation" was certainly the halmark of
the day in 12-13th century Chatres, that's for sure, and, even though they
look like *relatively* modest, simple beginnings *to us,* a case could be made
that we need to walk a few leagues in some middlevil shoes in order to try and
fully appreciate the effect of these changes on the "Medieval Mindset" etc.
i've often wondered what a "city" (pop., maybe as low as 8,500) like Chartres
would have looked like to folks who spent their whole lives within a very,
very narrow distance from their birth places and to whom *any* sort of
man-made environment was unusual, much less a *vast* one like [even a modest]
"city."
what would it be like to come in from the countryside and see this :
http://www.ariadne.org/centrechartraine/town/prache/prache_cover.jpg
(from the ground, of course.)
i'm reminded of american movies from the earlier 20th century which deal with
the theme of a young girl or boy comming into the Big City from the farm...
early 20th century American cities were *much* larger, of course, but the
qualitative experience would have been analogous, perhaps.
we think of it in totally positive terms, but, even for the somewhat jaded
City Dweller of 1200, seeing that *vast* new cathedral going up in the few
decades it took to build it must have been in reality "deeply unsettling at
all levels of society."
(there were, of course, urban riots in various cities which had spiffy, new,
expensive cathedrals going up. modern historians have usually emphasized the
economic factors which, surely, played an important causative role in these
events; but i'm not at all sure that the economic situation was the whole
story and could very well be seen as a symptom of a much larger, partly
psychic, "dislocation" as well as a cause.)
>My point was that this does not explain any perceived lack of 'crises' over
identity in the period.
no, it doesn't.
>Over the issue of conflicts, I think you are misrepresenting me a bit.
sorry.
>I wouldn't for a minute suggest that the conflicts between Cluniacs and
Cistercians were anything like as divisive as the contemporary religious
conflicts to which you refer. (Though, of course, medieval Muslim/Christian,
Jewish/Christian, Cathar/Christian conflicts are
certainly comparable!)
yes, to a *certain* extent --but i thought you had eleminated those
"heretical" conflicts from the discussion.
>I was merely pointing out that such domestic religious conflicts reflected
rival accounts of the self.
modestly.
operative word : "domestic"
>They were mild expressions of conflict over identity admittedly, but one
doesn't have to look too far in the period to find more severe
examples.
i'd submit that even the "heretical" (broadly defined) conflicts all took
place within a context of Shared Belief which it is difficult for us Modrens
--even us Believing Modrens-- to comprehend.
Middlevil Belief --Muslim/Christian, Jewish/Christian, Cathar/Christian--was
on a scale which 20th c. Westerners simply cannot fully appreciate.
far as i'm concerned, there's a very good chance that the Medievals were not
fully "Bi-cameral," in Julian Jaynes' interesting characterisation
(admittedly, of non-medieval folks).
>Anyway, wasn't all of this (as silly as it sounds) to do with what Constable
would say,
literally, perhaps, but, uhmmmm, reconstruction Professor Constable's
*possible* response to a question is certainly of very limited interest to
me.
>rather than what he did say in response to a question about
spiritual/psychological disturbance? I was suggesting that he might have said
medieval disturbances had medieval expressions, that's all.
he might very well have.
and i'd be happy to hear it and hear his discussion of it.
best from here,
christopher
------------
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