medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Please note as well that Dr. Karen Wagner's doctoral
dissertation [1996?]at the Centre for Medieval Studies
was an edition and study of the _De vera et falsa
penitentia_.  The notes there should be of use to this
questions as well.
Stephen Cordova
--- Bella Millett <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval
> religion and culture
>
> Dear Elena,
>
> I think I might be able to help on both queries.
>
> i) I have pasted in below a note from the edition of
> the
> early-C13 rule for anchoresses, _Ancrene Wisse_,
> that I'm
> working on:
>
> 5. 92r/9-11. þah . . . seoluen ['But even so, 'O!'
> is
> better than 'No!';he [Augustine] says elsewhere
> himself,
> 'Nunquam sera penitencia si tamen est vera']: the
> reference
> is probably to Ps.-Augustine, _De vera et falsa
> poenitentia_, Ch. 27, § 33, PL 40. 1127-8, as
> paraphrased
> by Peter Lombard, _Sententiae_, Bk. 4, Dist. 20, §
> 1, PL
> 192. 893: licet ergo sit difficile ut tunc sit vera
> poenitentia quae tam sera venit . . . melior est
> tamen sera
> quam nulla (‘therefore, although it is difficult for
>
> repentance which comes so late to be true then . . .
>
> nevertheless, it is better late than never'). Cf.
> also
> Peter Cantor, _Verbum abbreviatum_, Ch. 145, PL 205.
> 349:
> poenitentia si est vera, non est sera (‘if
> repentance is
> true, it is not late'). The verbal formulation of
> the Latin
> used in AW  is closely paralleled in John of
> Salisbury,
> _Polycraticus_, Bk. 7, Ch. 21, PL 199. 693
> (Poenitentia
> quoque nunquam sera est, si tamen vera), but there
> it is
> presented unqualified, as a claim made by religious
> who
> (John feels) give absolution too readily.
>
> ii) There is a parallel passage in
> Alan of Lille, _Summa de Arte Praedicatoria_, ch.
> 32, PL
> 210.175: Alan lists 3 types of fire, in earth,
> purgatory,
> and hell, the first two of which purge sins:
> 'Si purgamur in primo, liberamur in secundo et
> tertio . ..
> Primus enim purgatorius, quasi umbra est et pictura
> secundi; quia, sicut umbra et pictura materialis
> ignis
> nullum infert dolorem sed ipse ignis materialis
> cruciatum
> vel ardorem infert; sic ignis poenitentiae nihil
> habet
> amaritudinis juxta secundi purgatorii comparationem.
> Quia,
> ut dicit Augustinus, poena purgatorii multo gravior
> est
> qualibet temporali.'
>
> I would guess a) that you are right, and it is the
> Ps-Augustinian _De vera et falsa penitentia_ (which
> may
> have been composed as late as the early C12) which
> underlies both points, and b)that it is probably
> pointless
> for you to look for closer parallels either there or
> in
> Augustine's works; what your later quotations
> reflect is
> the subsequent elaboration and formalization of the
> points
> made in _De Vera et F. P._ in twelfth-century and
> later
> pastoral literature.
>
> But if anyone can do better than this, I'd be
> interested in
> further information,
>
> best wishes,
> Bella Millett
>
> On Sat, 13 Apr 2002 16:11:45 +0200 Elena Lemeneva
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of
> medieval
> religion and culture >
> > Dear listmembers,
> >
> > I would be grateful for any help in identification
> of
> these two well-put > statements:
> > > 1.  Unde Augustinus: Penitentia sera raro est
> vera. . .
> > > An attribution to Augustin is given by my
> anonymous
> preacher. Hans Walther, > in his <i>Lateinische
> Sprichwörter und Sentenzen des Mittelalters in >
> Alphabetischer Anordnung</i>, also states that this
> is
> Augustin but doesnot > indicate a precise work where
> this
> could be found. > "Penitentia sera raro est vera"
> without
> reference to the author, is quoted > in a sermon #5
> earlier
> ascribed to Thomas Aquinas (in fact, Iohannes de >
> Verdy,
> see L. - J. Bataillon, "Les sermons attribués à
> Saint
> Thomas: > questions d'authenticité", in <i>La
> prédication
> au XIII siècle en France et > Italie: Etudes et
> documents</i> (Variorum: Aldershot, UK, 1993), 325 -
> 41, >
> specifically p. 338, ft. 68. > Otherwise there is no
> trace
> of this proverb elsewhere.  Searches through >
> Thesaurus
> August.; CLCLT4, and PLD yielded nothing. > >  The
> only
> analogue I was able to find is in Augustin's "Liber
> de vera
> et > falsa poenitentia" (PL 40, 1114 - 30), 1128,
> 17,33: >
> Quae conversio si contigerit alicui etiam in fine,
> desperandum non est de > eius remissione. Sed
> quoniam vix
> vel raro est tam iusta conversio, timendum > est de
> sero
> poenitente. Quem enim morbus urget, et poena terret,
> ad
> veram > vix veniet satisfactionem. . . > > But this
> is not
> exactly what I have been looking for. > > 2. The
> second
> query seems similarly hopeless: > > . . . dicit
> beatus
> Augustinus, quod talis sit ignis nobis visibilis
> respectu >
> ignis purgatorii qualis est depictus ignis respectu
> illius
> qui apparet nobis > visibilis videlicet in
> acerbitate. > >
> I am not sure this is Augustin at all, even though
> the
> general sense of this > statement is close to the
> following
> place in the above mentioned "Liber de > vera et
> falsa
> poenitentia" (PL 40, 1114 - 30), 1128, 18,34: > Hic
> autem
> ignis etsi aeternus non fuerit, miro tamen modo est
> gravis:
> > excellit enim omnem poenam quam umquam passus est
> in hac
> vita. Nunquam in > carne tanta inventa est poena. .
> . > >
> Could anyone help me out here? > > Best from rainy
> Grottaferrata, > > Elena Lemeneva > PhD candidate
> > Medieval Studies, Central European Uni
> (Budapest)/Institute for General > History at the
> Russian
> Academy of Sciences (Moscow) > [log in to unmask] >
> >
>
**********************************************************************
> > To join the list, send the message: join
> medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to:
> [log in to unmask] >
> To send a message to the list, address it to: >
> [log in to unmask] > To leave the
> list, send
> the message: leave medieval-religion > to:
> [log in to unmask] > In order to report
> problems or to
> contact the list's owners, write to: >
> [log in to unmask] > For
> further
> information, visit our web site: >
>
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html
>
> ----------------------
> Dr Bella Millett
> [log in to unmask]
> English Department
> University of Southampton
> Southampton
> SO17 1BJ
> 023 80593704
>
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax
http://taxes.yahoo.com/

**********************************************************************
To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME
to: [log in to unmask]
To send a message to the list, address it to:
[log in to unmask]
To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion
to: [log in to unmask]
In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to:
[log in to unmask]
For further information, visit our web site:
http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html