Hi Mark
Do you mean Nietzsche's law of Eternal Recurrence? I can't remember
it being redemptive, though it is quite a while since I've read
Nietzsche to any length; and the Nietzsche whom I have most enjoyed
is in The Gay Science. I think I always read Nietzsche against
himself, quite possibly erroneously (though I keep the privilege of
error jealously) which is why I have largely found him funny;
tragically funny, of course. What attracts me is I think the
"laughter over the abyss", which Bataille picks up on, in On
Nietzsche - the gamble and the "innocence of risk" (God's infantalism
and the play of uselessness).
Best
A
>Beauty as a term is a bone of contention, I think I shore it round me in
>order to defend an ideal, I seek it even in the gutters. I don't think I
>could live in a world that didn't have beauty. Perhaps. The world is full of
>unhappiness and people can't simply talk amongst them selves, they must
>defend the invisible lines of history or hers with violent acts. I look at
>parts of world and I'm unhappy. You have places of beauty you can return to
>and they move you Lawrence. That is a beautiful thing. I need beauty!
>
>Allot of my friends, those that are left, suffer from addictions, Nostalgia
>is currently their only remaining hope. They are not bad people like some
>people would like to think. They played in the sea, walked and climbed and
>could appreciate the beauty in most of what they saw. They are like empty
>shells now, but every time I see them, they withdraw to a distant past, a
>day that was happy, a moment tinged with beauty, and they have a light in
>their eyes again.
>
>I am going to read 'AL Rowse's _A Cornish Childhood', thank you Alison, and
>Lawrence - for your enlightening correspondence.
>
>I agree with Nietzsche that nostalgia is a deathly thing. I am not that
>clear on Nietzsche though, I am not yet prepared for him, entirely, but
>doesn't Nietzsche also talk of a circular redemption, which could be read as
>a disempowerment of Nostalgia making nostalgia something more recuperative /
>redemptive.This is possibly what you are referring to when to say it 'might
>end up being the same thing'.
>
>I am in water too deep, please tell me if I am being tiresome, vague or even
>worse misunderstanding. It is always better to know your faults else you
>can't change 'um.
>
>Thank you Anny!
>
>Anyway I wanted to talk about Milton and Paradise and the the 'Ideology of
>Hope' and George Herbert. Shining lights in Dark times. But the labour of
>the day has tired me out, so I'll just read, keep quite and learn for a bit.
>
>the best to you all
>
>mark
>
>PS. The Pigeon is the latest, the last was a Blackbird, nominated the sixth
>most beautiful singer in Europe! It nests in the backyard now, reared from a
>wind fallen chick. And then their was the seagull, he was also young and has
>succesfully made his home overhead. I think on Pounds 'Pigeons' and the one
>of the only bits of Italian I know.
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:56 AM
>Subject: Re: Poetry
>
>
>> Hi Mark
>>
>> If I sounded as if I know about birds, I have misled you. I just know that
>> pigeons in houses dont live long and that birds need to wash their wings
>to
>> avoid infestation and to exercise and tend them if they are to function
>>
>> I suspect that if its wing's damaged it is in deep trouble. Without expert
>> advice / knowledge, my inclination is to trust the pigeon but not harbour
>> any hopes for an Androcles-style avian friendship in future
>>
>> Glad you like my dream project poem - genuinely glad, especially if you
>find
>> it beautiful; but I'll change the subject
>>
>> I wondered if you were coming from the neo-Platonic... Hopkins is, of
>> course, if indirectly
>>
>> Shelley is a poet of major importance to me and I got much more out of him
>> as I began to get a hold on the philosophical ideas he was using, but I
> > don't
>> like them. You mention Yeats. Yeats produced astounding writing out of
>some
>> utter claptrap
>>
>> I used to train myself to bark at beauty till I realised it wasn't the
>> experience of beauty which antagonised me but the sloppy use of the term;
>> and then I began antagonistic chasing of beauty as a sugarcandy mountain
>> promise
>>
>> I wonder and worry about this. As I do of ideas of Paradise. There being
>no
>> paradise (I assert), how is that we are, collectively, at least dogged by
>> them?
>>
>> Maybe as a rationalisation or just expression of a sense of loss... and
>loss
>> is going to cut in given our mortality and given all being mutability,
>even
>> without the efforts of airheads with armaments flattening places and
>people
>> that were better off unflattened. Taken head on, we can do something with
>> beauty, but the danger of sentimentality is there always like a drop
>without
>> a railing
>>
>> The excited edge to the apprehension of beauty probably comes from lack,
>> which will hone the desire for whatever is beloved. In late March / early
>> April, I spent a couple of weeks with spectacular sunsets every day; and,
>> while they never palled, I was less and less inclined to stand shivering
>on
>> the beach watching the whole show *every night; and I was soon trading
>some
>> of it for the opportunity to wash myself while there was still some warmth
>> left in the air - I was roughing it
>>
>> On the other hand, I then found myself daily in a familiar position,
>looking
>> down a hill of oddly shaped rooves, each familiar to me, for about three
>> weeks, a view I know well. It isn't a ravishing view, but there's
>something
>> to it, there's a sort of Ben Nicolson elegance to it,and I never tire of
>> it. In fact, I am missing it with some discomfort now
>>
>> & when I am in west cornwall, wch is where I am talking about, I nearly
>> always clamber up Zennor Tor, which is, despite the collapsed quoit, more
>an
>> abandoned industrial site than anything. Wordsworth's "visionary
>dreariness"
>> might be made for it - and I think a lot of the "magical Cornwall" stuff
>is
>> people seeing what they want to see, not what is in front of them - yet
>> beauty is probably a good word for it
>>
>> It's just that "beauty" doesn't mean "very pretty"
>>
>> *
>> I wonder if cris cheek is here and if he remembers driving back from
>> cumbria about 20 years and a good joke he made
>>
>> we went up and over a hill to be faced with a sky near as damn it the
>cover
>> of the then paperback of The Prelude
>>
>> I remarked on that and, I imagine there was a conversation now long
>> forgotten; but I do remember cris doing the poets in different voices
>>
>> He: Mary, go up that mountain and see what it's like
>>
>> She: [panting as from exertion] It's beautiful, William
>>
>> He: OK, make a note of that, will you
>>
>> *
>>
>> Thanks for that Alison. I have begun to notice that there are certain
>pieces
>> of music I am somewhat apprehensive about hearing because the pleasure of
>> them is almost racking sometimes
>>
>> L
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
>> To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> Sent: 27 May 2002 23:40
>> Subject: Re: Poetry
>>
>>
>> | Lawrence, I shall reply as best as I can with what first comes to mind.
>> I'm
>> | sat here thinking, still. I 'll tell you what I am thinking. Peter
>Larkin
>>
>> | talks in terms of 'scarcity', I am thinking of a beauty which is
>'here' -
>> | 'in reality' but a beauty which is 'scarce' due to the depreciation of
>> | relations, possibly - to and of, if this makes sense. Shelly, taking
>from
>> | Plato speaks of 'the one spirit plastic stress', and Hopkins has
>> 'inscape',
>> | and in this thread I trace an idea of beauty, that I can feel and
>possibly
>> | work toward. I walk, like yourself in beautiful areas, I live in a
>> beautiful
>> | area, and I forget it. It is beautiful because the sound of the forest
>> even
>> | in its ironic mutation is all around me, and I remember, hearing 'voices
>> in
>> | the orchard playing', and suddenly I remember and it's all quite
>'still'.
>> | Sorry about all of this, it's the only way I can respond. Your Poem in
>the
>> | 'The Dream Project' is beautiful... I've just thought of Yeat's and his
>> | 'terrible beauty', and onto Bacon who knew how to paint it, I think. It
>is
>> | an impression in my mind. Like an explosion in space. The image appears
>> like
>> | a snapshot, a moment petrified.
>> |
>> | Thank you for the info on the pigeon, the pigeon's wing may be damaged
>> quite
>> | badly from the fall, should I allow h/er to exercise it still?
>> |
>> | Thanks for yours, and I hope this lack of precision offers at least a
>> vague
>> | impression.
>> |
>> | mark
>> | ----- Original Message -----
>> | From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
>> | To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> | Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 9:50 PM
>> | Subject: Re: Poetry
>> |
>> |
>> | > Mark, where do you think this idea of beauty comes from?
>> | >
>> | > Often, finding beauty, is a matter of looking, perhaps looking
>> | > differently...
>> | >
>> | > I spend quite a bit of time in an area already classified as
>> "outstanding
>> | > natural beauty" and up for other similar categorisation; and I note 2
>> | things
>> | > in particular
>> | >
>> | > one - the people who live there don't seem to notice the beauty of it,
>> not
>> | > in quite the same way as I... I had a character in a poem chat about
>> this
>> | > once and "he" thought one becomes acclimatised to it, comparing it to
>> the
>> | > love of another which replaces the initial falling in love with them
>> | >
>> | > two - that talking to others who are not living permanently in it,
>some
>> | seem
>> | > to be constructing their beauty of it in quite a different way to me -
>> | that
>> | > the aspects / things I find most exciting are not those which others
>> find
>> | > most exciting (I realise that switching from apprehension of beauty to
>> | > excitement is a little suspect)
>> | >
>> | > *and I meet those who find it all dull, and who go looking for
>> | "attractions"
>> | >
>> | > but if I read you correctly you are sensing a beauty which is not
>quite
>> | > located "here" - "in reality" as you say
>> | >
>> | > Where does such an idea come from?
>> | >
>> | > That's a plato to nato question, I know... So where do *you get it
>> from?
>> | >
>> | > (Having saved and lost pigeons,I think the trick is to get them out of
>> bed
>> | > and back to work asap) (and make sure it has enough water to wash or
>its
>> | > flight may be impaired)
>> | >
>> | >
>> | > L
>> | >
>> | > ----- Original Message -----
>> | > From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
>> | > To: <[log in to unmask]>
>> | > Sent: 27 May 2002 21:20
>> | > Subject: Poetry
>> | >
>> | >
>> | > 'this stunning beauty that allows mere contemplation'
>> | >
>> | > I like the ideal of contemplating this kind of beauty set against my
>> | > realisation of a lack of this in reality. I enjoyed the sounds that
>> | presided
>> | > in the 'HIGH LOVELY SMELL', a poem's sounds, which I lovingly rolled
>off
>> | my
>> | > tongue, aloud, in my living room, before my inner child was awoken and
>> | > joyously played with the 'nose' that 'picks up on a thing or too';
>this
>> | had
>> | > me feeling for play. And then the frighteningly beautiful silence that
>I
>> | > found haunting me in 'curious omens'. I want to talk about 'Power and
>> | > Weakness' too. But perhaps my language is to weak and ineffectual to
>> fully
>> | > respond.
>> | >
>> | > A pigeon was shot outside my flat by a guy with an air-pistol in the
>> room
>> | > opposite. Left it to die. I've got the pigeon, I think it'll live! It
>> must
>> | > be confused. One of me shot the bird and the another wants to help it
>> | live.
>> | > Confused.
>> | >
>> | > Love,
>> | > mark
>> | >
>> | > I am learning from you all. Thank you!
>> | >
>> |
>>
--
"The only real revolt is the revolt against war."
Albert Camus
Alison Croggon
Home page
http://www.users.bigpond.com/acroggon/
Masthead Online
http://au.geocities.com/masthead_2/
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