Blimey, youre an ornithologist. I'll shut up.
I don't think youre being tiresome in your speculations. It's a dangerous
area and I am glad that you are willing to explore it
Future exploration plans sound interesting - Herbert and Milton
all best
L
----- Original Message -----
From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 28 May 2002 20:41
Subject: Re: Poetry
| Beauty as a term is a bone of contention, I think I shore it round me in
| order to defend an ideal, I seek it even in the gutters. I don't think I
| could live in a world that didn't have beauty. Perhaps. The world is full
of
| unhappiness and people can't simply talk amongst them selves, they must
| defend the invisible lines of history or hers with violent acts. I look at
| parts of world and I'm unhappy. You have places of beauty you can return
to
| and they move you Lawrence. That is a beautiful thing. I need beauty!
|
| Allot of my friends, those that are left, suffer from addictions,
Nostalgia
| is currently their only remaining hope. They are not bad people like some
| people would like to think. They played in the sea, walked and climbed and
| could appreciate the beauty in most of what they saw. They are like empty
| shells now, but every time I see them, they withdraw to a distant past, a
| day that was happy, a moment tinged with beauty, and they have a light in
| their eyes again.
|
| I am going to read 'AL Rowse's _A Cornish Childhood', thank you Alison,
and
| Lawrence - for your enlightening correspondence.
|
| I agree with Nietzsche that nostalgia is a deathly thing. I am not that
| clear on Nietzsche though, I am not yet prepared for him, entirely, but
| doesn't Nietzsche also talk of a circular redemption, which could be read
as
| a disempowerment of Nostalgia making nostalgia something more recuperative
/
| redemptive.This is possibly what you are referring to when to say it
'might
| end up being the same thing'.
|
| I am in water too deep, please tell me if I am being tiresome, vague or
even
| worse misunderstanding. It is always better to know your faults else you
| can't change 'um.
|
| Thank you Anny!
|
| Anyway I wanted to talk about Milton and Paradise and the the 'Ideology
of
| Hope' and George Herbert. Shining lights in Dark times. But the labour of
| the day has tired me out, so I'll just read, keep quite and learn for a
bit.
|
| the best to you all
|
| mark
|
| PS. The Pigeon is the latest, the last was a Blackbird, nominated the
sixth
| most beautiful singer in Europe! It nests in the backyard now, reared from
a
| wind fallen chick. And then their was the seagull, he was also young and
has
| succesfully made his home overhead. I think on Pounds 'Pigeons' and the
one
| of the only bits of Italian I know.
| ----- Original Message -----
| From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
| To: <[log in to unmask]>
| Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2002 12:56 AM
| Subject: Re: Poetry
|
|
| > Hi Mark
| >
| > If I sounded as if I know about birds, I have misled you. I just know
that
| > pigeons in houses dont live long and that birds need to wash their wings
| to
| > avoid infestation and to exercise and tend them if they are to function
| >
| > I suspect that if its wing's damaged it is in deep trouble. Without
expert
| > advice / knowledge, my inclination is to trust the pigeon but not
harbour
| > any hopes for an Androcles-style avian friendship in future
| >
| > Glad you like my dream project poem - genuinely glad, especially if you
| find
| > it beautiful; but I'll change the subject
| >
| > I wondered if you were coming from the neo-Platonic... Hopkins is, of
| > course, if indirectly
| >
| > Shelley is a poet of major importance to me and I got much more out of
him
| > as I began to get a hold on the philosophical ideas he was using, but I
| > don't
| > like them. You mention Yeats. Yeats produced astounding writing out of
| some
| > utter claptrap
| >
| > I used to train myself to bark at beauty till I realised it wasn't the
| > experience of beauty which antagonised me but the sloppy use of the
term;
| > and then I began antagonistic chasing of beauty as a sugarcandy mountain
| > promise
| >
| > I wonder and worry about this. As I do of ideas of Paradise. There being
| no
| > paradise (I assert), how is that we are, collectively, at least dogged
by
| > them?
| >
| > Maybe as a rationalisation or just expression of a sense of loss... and
| loss
| > is going to cut in given our mortality and given all being mutability,
| even
| > without the efforts of airheads with armaments flattening places and
| people
| > that were better off unflattened. Taken head on, we can do something
with
| > beauty, but the danger of sentimentality is there always like a drop
| without
| > a railing
| >
| > The excited edge to the apprehension of beauty probably comes from lack,
| > which will hone the desire for whatever is beloved. In late March /
early
| > April, I spent a couple of weeks with spectacular sunsets every day;
and,
| > while they never palled, I was less and less inclined to stand shivering
| on
| > the beach watching the whole show *every night; and I was soon trading
| some
| > of it for the opportunity to wash myself while there was still some
warmth
| > left in the air - I was roughing it
| >
| > On the other hand, I then found myself daily in a familiar position,
| looking
| > down a hill of oddly shaped rooves, each familiar to me, for about three
| > weeks, a view I know well. It isn't a ravishing view, but there's
| something
| > to it, there's a sort of Ben Nicolson elegance to it,and I never tire
of
| > it. In fact, I am missing it with some discomfort now
| >
| > & when I am in west cornwall, wch is where I am talking about, I nearly
| > always clamber up Zennor Tor, which is, despite the collapsed quoit,
more
| an
| > abandoned industrial site than anything. Wordsworth's "visionary
| dreariness"
| > might be made for it - and I think a lot of the "magical Cornwall" stuff
| is
| > people seeing what they want to see, not what is in front of them - yet
| > beauty is probably a good word for it
| >
| > It's just that "beauty" doesn't mean "very pretty"
| >
| > *
| > I wonder if cris cheek is here and if he remembers driving back from
| > cumbria about 20 years and a good joke he made
| >
| > we went up and over a hill to be faced with a sky near as damn it the
| cover
| > of the then paperback of The Prelude
| >
| > I remarked on that and, I imagine there was a conversation now long
| > forgotten; but I do remember cris doing the poets in different voices
| >
| > He: Mary, go up that mountain and see what it's like
| >
| > She: [panting as from exertion] It's beautiful, William
| >
| > He: OK, make a note of that, will you
| >
| > *
| >
| > Thanks for that Alison. I have begun to notice that there are certain
| pieces
| > of music I am somewhat apprehensive about hearing because the pleasure
of
| > them is almost racking sometimes
| >
| > L
| >
| > ----- Original Message -----
| > From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
| > To: <[log in to unmask]>
| > Sent: 27 May 2002 23:40
| > Subject: Re: Poetry
| >
| >
| > | Lawrence, I shall reply as best as I can with what first comes to
mind.
| > I'm
| > | sat here thinking, still. I 'll tell you what I am thinking. Peter
| Larkin
| >
| > | talks in terms of 'scarcity', I am thinking of a beauty which is
| 'here' -
| > | 'in reality' but a beauty which is 'scarce' due to the depreciation of
| > | relations, possibly - to and of, if this makes sense. Shelly, taking
| from
| > | Plato speaks of 'the one spirit plastic stress', and Hopkins has
| > 'inscape',
| > | and in this thread I trace an idea of beauty, that I can feel and
| possibly
| > | work toward. I walk, like yourself in beautiful areas, I live in a
| > beautiful
| > | area, and I forget it. It is beautiful because the sound of the forest
| > even
| > | in its ironic mutation is all around me, and I remember, hearing
'voices
| > in
| > | the orchard playing', and suddenly I remember and it's all quite
| 'still'.
| > | Sorry about all of this, it's the only way I can respond. Your Poem in
| the
| > | 'The Dream Project' is beautiful... I've just thought of Yeat's and
his
| > | 'terrible beauty', and onto Bacon who knew how to paint it, I think.
It
| is
| > | an impression in my mind. Like an explosion in space. The image
appears
| > like
| > | a snapshot, a moment petrified.
| > |
| > | Thank you for the info on the pigeon, the pigeon's wing may be damaged
| > quite
| > | badly from the fall, should I allow h/er to exercise it still?
| > |
| > | Thanks for yours, and I hope this lack of precision offers at least a
| > vague
| > | impression.
| > |
| > | mark
| > | ----- Original Message -----
| > | From: "Lawrence Upton" <[log in to unmask]>
| > | To: <[log in to unmask]>
| > | Sent: Monday, May 27, 2002 9:50 PM
| > | Subject: Re: Poetry
| > |
| > |
| > | > Mark, where do you think this idea of beauty comes from?
| > | >
| > | > Often, finding beauty, is a matter of looking, perhaps looking
| > | > differently...
| > | >
| > | > I spend quite a bit of time in an area already classified as
| > "outstanding
| > | > natural beauty" and up for other similar categorisation; and I note
2
| > | things
| > | > in particular
| > | >
| > | > one - the people who live there don't seem to notice the beauty of
it,
| > not
| > | > in quite the same way as I... I had a character in a poem chat about
| > this
| > | > once and "he" thought one becomes acclimatised to it, comparing it
to
| > the
| > | > love of another which replaces the initial falling in love with them
| > | >
| > | > two - that talking to others who are not living permanently in it,
| some
| > | seem
| > | > to be constructing their beauty of it in quite a different way to
me -
| > | that
| > | > the aspects / things I find most exciting are not those which
others
| > find
| > | > most exciting (I realise that switching from apprehension of beauty
to
| > | > excitement is a little suspect)
| > | >
| > | > *and I meet those who find it all dull, and who go looking for
| > | "attractions"
| > | >
| > | > but if I read you correctly you are sensing a beauty which is not
| quite
| > | > located "here" - "in reality" as you say
| > | >
| > | > Where does such an idea come from?
| > | >
| > | > That's a plato to nato question, I know... So where do *you get it
| > from?
| > | >
| > | > (Having saved and lost pigeons,I think the trick is to get them out
of
| > bed
| > | > and back to work asap) (and make sure it has enough water to wash or
| its
| > | > flight may be impaired)
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > L
| > | >
| > | > ----- Original Message -----
| > | > From: "mark dickinson" <[log in to unmask]>
| > | > To: <[log in to unmask]>
| > | > Sent: 27 May 2002 21:20
| > | > Subject: Poetry
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > 'this stunning beauty that allows mere contemplation'
| > | >
| > | > I like the ideal of contemplating this kind of beauty set against my
| > | > realisation of a lack of this in reality. I enjoyed the sounds that
| > | presided
| > | > in the 'HIGH LOVELY SMELL', a poem's sounds, which I lovingly rolled
| off
| > | my
| > | > tongue, aloud, in my living room, before my inner child was awoken
and
| > | > joyously played with the 'nose' that 'picks up on a thing or too';
| this
| > | had
| > | > me feeling for play. And then the frighteningly beautiful silence
that
| I
| > | > found haunting me in 'curious omens'. I want to talk about 'Power
and
| > | > Weakness' too. But perhaps my language is to weak and ineffectual to
| > fully
| > | > respond.
| > | >
| > | > A pigeon was shot outside my flat by a guy with an air-pistol in the
| > room
| > | > opposite. Left it to die. I've got the pigeon, I think it'll live!
It
| > must
| > | > be confused. One of me shot the bird and the another wants to help
it
| > | live.
| > | > Confused.
| > | >
| > | > Love,
| > | > mark
| > | >
| > | > I am learning from you all. Thank you!
| > | >
| > |
| >
|
|