medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
"Bro. Thomas Sullivan, O.S.B." <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>Marmoutier was a monastery in the diocese of Tours, with daughterhouses in
many dioceses, neighboring and not so.
yes, *hundreds* of them, apparently --i've read the "exact" figure, but, of
course, can't recall it. rivaled (surpassed?) Cluny in that regard. extended
(at least) into England....
most of the priories (which i know of in the Chartrain) were new foundations
and, apparently, rather modest; St. Martin's of Chartres being an exception, i
believe, though it was apparently *extensively* expanded when it came into
MM's orbit. i can't recall it's origins, but somewhere Delaporte says that it
is the oldest church in the area --recently i understand that the remains of
some *massive* Roman buildings have been found nearby, but i've not seen
anything in print about those finds.
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Was Marmoutier actually in the diocese of Chartres?
as Bro. Thomas points out, it's in the neighboring diocese of Tours (not
forgetting that that of Blois is a 17th c. creation and that Chartres' had
extensive riverfront real estate before the new one centered at Blois was
carved out of it and, across the river, the dio. of Bourges.).
>It does not seem so,
that's because it ain't, probably.
>yet it seemed to be an important monastery for the diocese of Chartres.
more important than, say, Cluny --which, far as i can recall, had only *one*
actual priory in the chartrain (don't know about the whole diocese), at
Nogent-le-Rotrou. St. Martin des Champs, a cluniac house outside of paris,
owned a bit of land here and there in the beauce, but St. Denis of Nogent is
the only significant cluniac house that i know of, off hand (corrections,
please).
it being *way* more work than i want to take on, i've never gotten it
straight, Jim, but i strongly suspect that there was a rather heavy-duty
*political* (gasp) aspect to MM's sucess in the region, hard as that might be
to believe.
recall that Tours was in the hands of the "Thibaudian" counts of
Blois/Chartres till they got run out in, i believe, the 1020s by that Angevin
Hammer Guy (or one of those Loireanean Heavies, i forget which).
but, for reasons which i've never been able to fathom (*some*one on this list
must actually know something about it --HELP), MM was quite popular amongst
the Greater (and even some of the Lesser) Muckety-Mucks of the
Chartrain-Blesois: some time in the in the first half of the 11th c. there was
a disputed election at Chartres and the looser, a fellow named Albert, who had
been, i believe, Dean of the chapter, retired to become Abbot of MM.
This might have been because it was the King who rejected his candidacy, and i
can't recall Albert's family orgins. (or, it might be that i've, once again,
mare's nested the whole thing.)
at least two of the Heads of the House of LePuiset (also Viscounts of
Chartres) in the 11th c. retired to MM, one of them after founding a *very*
important priory at Nottonville, down south of Chateaudun.
(And, there is an Abbot of MM in the later 12th c. who is from the Mereville
family, which was a branch of the LePuisets.)
Several of the LeP. Hangers On can also be seen in the documents as monks
after giving up their life of Rapine & Pillage --the most colorful (by name,
anyway) one of them i came across was styled "Bernardus Flagellus," which i've
often taken to be representative of what the experience might have been like
to have run into the guy back when he was in the World.
in any event, he ended up as the _panetarius_ of the abbey, and, as such, was
responsible for leaning on many of his old friends and fellow mafiosi to
"donate" property to MM, apparently, by --literally-- putting the FEAR OF GOD
into them. (he appears in charters in the "Dunois" cartularly published by
Mabille.)
>Was this common, to have a monastery with strong connections to a
neighbouring diocese?
as i say, best i can make out there almost certainly was political aspect to
MM's success in the chartrain --it just seems to me have been
--somehow-- a Thibaudian outpost in the midst of Angevin country; but i've
seen published cartularies from the Mancel and Norman regions as well, and
there must be quite a few more published which i've not seen.
a few years ago i heard from someone at k'zoo that some group of folks (out of
Harvard?) was working on publishing the massive amount of charter material
which remains unpublished (or poorly so, like Mabille's ed., which is a mess),
esp. the extensive early modern copies made by the Maurists and others.
anybody here know anything about that?
best to all,
christopher
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