medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Yes, you misunderstood me, doubtless because I wrote unclearly.
My point is that removal from the universal calender demotes the degree of veneration from universal to private/local. Since not all 6000+ canonized saints can be accorded universal veneration--the calendar simply won't accommodate that, the reasonable way to prune is to drop those for whom historical facticity is doubtful. Until these were dropped, they did enjoy universal liturgical veneration. After being dropped they may still enjoy veneration but not universal, formal liturgical veneration. The reason for according less than universal veneration to some is the practical limits of the system of universal veneration; one of the main criteria to deciding who gets what veneration is historical facticity.
Dennis Martin
>>> [log in to unmask] 12/04/01 12:49 PM >>>
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
If I understood Prof. Martin correctly, I don't think I agree that some
saints were dropped because they enjoyed less than "universal liturgical
veneration." Doesn't inclusion in the Roman calendar and liturgical books
constitute just that? But there were a number dropped from the Roman
calendar, owing In most cases to the dubious nature of the historical
evidence surrounding and undergirding their cults.
jw
-----Original Message-----
From: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
[mailto:[log in to unmask]]On Behalf Of Dennis Martin
Sent: Tuesday, December 4, 2001 11:35 AM
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Subject: Re: [M-R] [[M-R] saints of the day 4. December]
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Though I imagine this post was largelytongue-in-cheek, from the standpoint
of the Catholic Church, miracles are credible. Difficult of credibility but
credible because based on empirical observation. When one see's something
out of the ordinary, one's impulse is to deny that one has seen it but if
one stops trusting (starts disbelieving/incredibilizing) one's senses, then
all science comes to an end. If Farady had looked at a needle pointing the
opposite way from that which his previous experiments had led him to
_believe_ it would point, even though his eyes plainly told him it was
pointing the "wrong" way, he would never have made his breakthrough
discovery. (Example borrowed from Stanley Jaki, _Miracles and Physics_) So
much for the direct recipient of a miraculous (marvelous) experience.
Obviously, historical accounts of miracles are second and third and
thousandth-hand accounts. All historians have to confront what is
believable and not believable. The study of the lives of saints is no more
and no less a historical process than all other history work. Even the
non-factual "Legendary" material is of devotional value (as Delehaye pointed
out in his manual on hagiographic method). That would argue in favor of
leaving Barbara in the calendar but not because historical facticity cannot
to any degree be distinguished from legend. In removing Barbara and others
from the calendar the intent was _not_ to deny the devotional value of her
legend, merely to make a distinction between those saints enjoying universal
liturgical veneration and those who enjoy something less than that. The
calendar can only accommodate a limited number of mandatory and a few more
optional feasts if it is not to become a useles welter of saints' days. If
the list needed to be pruned, the obvious candidates were those whose
historical facticity was most doubtful.
Finally, miracles are only corroboratory evidence in canonization
proceedings. The fundamental basis for canonization is a life of heroic
Christian virtue, in some case culminating in martyrdom, all of which is to
be demonstrated by credible historical method. Miracles then are
corroboratory, important but secondary.
Dennis Martin
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