medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Thanks, Jim! You've filled me in on the Oriflamme, PLUS you've given me some
useful iconographic material for a current piece about the association of
Peter (& Paul) as patron saints with Anglo-Saxon royal estate centres. I
must chase up the mosaics in case there are illustrations to be had.
Best wishes
Graham
****************************************
Dr Graham Jones
Lecturer in English Topography
University of Leicester
Centre for English Local History
Marc Fitch Historical Institute
5 Salisbury Road
Leicester LE1 7QR
United Kingdom
Tel: +44 (0)116 252 2764
Fax: +44 (0)116 252 5769
e-Mail: [log in to unmask]
Web pages: http://www.le.ac.uk/elh/grj1
-----Original Message-----
From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 08 June 2001 12:19
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Oriflamme
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> In it she wrote (I hope I've got this right) that the Oriflamme was
> supposedly a gift from Charlemagne, but in fact was the standard of the
> Vexin, 'which had devolved to the king when the Vexin was added to the
royal
> domain in the reign of Philip I'.
Dear Graham,
The earliest documented reference to the Oriflamme, I believe, only
dates from the early 12th century. Trying to trace its earlier
history is comparable to doing the same for the holy chrism with
which the French kings were anointed. It rapidly gets a bit
legendary. Besides Charlemagne, Constantine has also been mentioned.
In fact, there were -- and still are, in fragmentary and highly
restored form -- a pair of mosaics in the Triclinium of the Lateran
Palace in Rome, apparently dating from the late 8th century,
depicting, in the first instance, Christ passing the keys to St Peter
with one hand and a banner to Constantine with the other, and in the
second instance, St Peter passing a papal stole to Pope Leo III (the
probable patron of the mosaics) and a banner to Charlemagne on the
other.
> Does this mean it carried symbolic devices (too early for anything but the
> simplest heraldry, perhaps) appropriate to the Vexin?
Most descriptions of the Oriflamme describe it as plain red, with no
charges. Drawings of the Lateran mosaics, however, show circles of
some sort on the banners.
> And now a really stupid question, but one prompted by the descriptions of
> the Oriflamme posted over the last couple of days. Charlemagne's Oriflamme
> couldn't by any chance have been a captured Moorish battle standard?
The idea for military banners can, apparently, be traced back further
than the Muslims. One can go right back to China. Certainly, the
Crusades were a centrally important catalyst in the early development
of heraldry, but to my knowledge, nobody has ever traced the
cross-cultural transfers of banners to Europe, from the Middle East,
and further, from China.
Cheers,
Jim Bugslag
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