medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
On these questions see Book III of the Gregorian Decretals under tit. 32 De
conversione coniugatorum.
Tom Izbicki
At 01:14 AM 3/23/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
>Dear Brenda!
>
>It's good to hear your voice again! I hope you are well.
>
> >EVEN THO he has come to totally different conclusions from mine.
>
>I don't think so. The persons are different, but the circumstances are quite
>similar. As regards the marriage of H & A, I agree to MOST of your
>arguments. Our comments are complementary, but not contradictious. Please,
>consider: You talked about circumstances, social restrictions etc., I talked
>about motives and psychic conditions.
>
> >Either BOTH had to "enter religion" or neither.
>
>Many so-called conventions and "rules" of the 12th century are taken for
>apodictic, today. Nevertheless, you will find a lot of exceptions. For
>example, St. Raingard, the mother of Peter the Venerable, asked her man to
>accept her conversion to religious life WITHOUT assuming that he did the
>same. And some centuries ago, St. Radegunde entered Sainte-Croix in
>Poitiers, and Clothar, her royal husband, continued to be king. In the 12th
>century, the canonical law demanded agreement between the partners, but not
>more. See Ivo von Chartres, Decretum VIII, ch. 127: "Ut nec pro religiosa
>vita vir ab uxore nisi consensu eius recedat." The husband can't enter
>religious life without his wife's "placet". This sentence sounds like
>emancipation, don't it?
>
>All the best
>
>Werner
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Ms B.M. Cook" <[log in to unmask]>
>To: <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Thursday, March 22, 2001 10:34 PM
>Subject: Re: [M-R] Abelard and Heloise: marriage
>
>
> > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
> >
> > Dear List,
> > As I am working on the life of Astralabe, Abelard's son, I have given his
> > parents' marriage, and the circumstances of his conception, some
> > consideration. I have a paper summarising my research that I will happily
> > send to any interested party. Please e-mail me
>mailto:[log in to unmask]
> > although it is a bit long to send as an attachment.
> > Like Werner Roble I have also done some work on Heloise's background.
>Werner
> > Roble has published my paper on Heloise on his web site EVEN THO he has
>come
> > to totally different conclusions from mine.
> > However I am - like Werner Robl - an amateur in mediaeval history.
> >
> > I believe that Heloise was herself illegitimate and the child of a priest
> > and a nun. Thus her attitude to marriage might be somewhat casual.
> > (Christopher Brooke: "The medieval idea of marriage" thinks that Heloise
>was
> > the child of clerical concubinage.)
> >
> > Heloise's refusal to marry Abelard seems to have arisen from her belief
>that
> > marriage and "philosophy" were incompatible. Marriage would also have
> > sabotaged Abelard's promotion prospects in the church.
> >
> > Abelard wanted to marry her out of a chivalrous sense of honour and also
>in
> > order to put himself right with his colleague, Canon Fulbert, whom he had
> > betrayed and dishonoured by his seduction of Fulbert's ward. Please note
> > that it was FULBERT who was betrayed and dishonoured by the seduction, not
> > Heloise. The offence was against the woman's family, not to the woman
> > herself. Her consent - or otherwise - was irrelevant.
> >
> > It was impossible for Heloise to resist Abelard's pressure to marry her.
>She
> > had eloped with him, she was a guest of his family and she had no other
> > economic support (that we know of) for herself or her child. Also he legal
> > guardian, Canon Fulbert, had consented to the marriage. It was his consent
> > that mattered, not her's. She was probably also justly afraid of how her
> > uncle would treat her on her return. In fact Abelard records that she
>later
> > fled from her uncle's abuse although it is not clear whether this was
> > physical or only verbal.
> >
> > Once Abelard (in his post-calamity state of mind) had resolved to become a
> > monk, Heloise was OBLIGED to become a nun. Because they were a married
> > couple, either BOTH had to "enter religion" or neither. Once again
>Heloise's
> > course of action was dictated by the men she was dependent on.
> >
> > She simply had to make the best of a bad job - as women always had done
>up
> > to the 1960s in the Western World and still have to in much of the rest of
> > the world. It is interesting that Heloise EXPRESSED an independent
> > expression, and that it was recorded. I do not believe Abelard "faked"
> > Heloise's anti-marriage views. For one thing he was a man with a high
>regard
> > for truth even if his view of truth was (like everyone's) biassed. But he
> > was clearly surprised that she did not fall on his neck in thankfulness
>when
> > he announced they were to marry.
> >
> > Sorry if this is a bit long.
> > Comment on the bones in a sequal ...
> >
> > Brenda M.C.
> >
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