Hello Ian and all - -- Maybe now we might begin again and work together again
as best we can. I would love that. Thanks for the chance. I agree that Wil and
Sarah and all others that contribute do so in a wonderful way. Is this a
postmodern university on the lines of an "outres" ? Maybe. No building and no
organised structure as such but still people are able to learn together !!!!
The postmodern way, perhaps just like Ivan Illich already said so well in the
1970s.

The postmodern is said by many ( see David Harvey) to have really hit the hot
spots in the time of 1973. There is sense to his playful comment. This was "oil
crisis" time. The postmodern is a time when all is up for new interpretations.

But, as was said already well over one hundred years ago, the postmodern is a
time when "all that is solid melts into air". Think of the change - farm to
city or even factory to office. Think of the mountaineering and the climbing
walls in swimming pools. Think of silicon valleys, breasts, enlarged penis
hopes and dreams and think of the adventure itself. Some time ago James N
talked about space travel as the adventure. I agree with him so much. The
postmodern does, it seems to me, to involve "space". I use this term carefully.
"Space" is where it is at. This is a wilderness of one sort. A "space".

Just what can this postmodern "space" be is another question. One thing is this
- we can carry on chatting ( no extra charge so long as you have a computer)
and we can make, as Ivan Illich wanted, a convivial atmosphere. We can
de-school !! We can even try and "pick and mix" our meals of delights as we
will. This is a postmodern poterntial and I think this e.mail chat line system
is a good example of this "fact". The universities might charge a pretty penny
to "talk" to professors ( if a student is lucky enough to get that far) but
this "outres" list is open and it is a space for all that can afford it or can
work the street through a computer line.

But the problem here is that the internet moves day by day. What is here today
is gone tomorrow, sometimes. We all know this. But this is something of a
postmodern way. "All that is solid melts into air".

Ian, I hope that you will take me seriously when I suggest that "Alice In
Wonderland" is a good read for a postmodern adventure. At least I would try and
support that book in any curriculum debate for adventure education.

You asked us for references. Let me be as honest as i want to be and try to be.
I think the Bob Dylan song "Like a Rolling Stone" says much of this postmodern
type of questioning and i would prefer to keep away ( for awhile anyway) from
so called academic books. I wish to take things back to the street as best i
can.

I have already mentioned David Harvey but that is just one of the works that I
have found to be useful. It is a difficult read. At least it was for me. I
needed two or three hundred years of history to begin to make sense of his
fantastic work. How the hell can I be open about this? I have tried to work for
about 15 years on the postmodern stuff and still I end up by saying to my
students at the end of a four month course :-

" I have taught you everything I know and still you know nothing".

When students laugh at this i know that we have all worked well together as
best we can. That is the best feeling ( feelings are very postmodern) of it
all.

But still you ask for more references. Let me suggest one or two :-

a) GOETHE - especially "Elective Affinities" written about 200 years ago and
still a dream of delight. Easily found on the internet.
b) Douglas Kellner ( from the USA) writes good stuff about postmodernity and
the media and media culture. Again easily found if the "will" is there to
"seek".
c) Concerning outdoor adventures I might suggest Roland Barthes( English
translations about early 1970s) and "MYTHOLOGIES". One hell of a read. But
great stuff once the "click" is clicked.

But the postmodern turn would "include" the many "other voices".

I have given only male-stream voices and white males at that.

I am not able to give you good references in postmodern fashion. I have only
one little brain and body. I try but I am just too damned much "myself". All I
can HOPE for is that what I say is not closing the world or shutting doors. Of
course I have read more books than some people just as many have read more
books than I. But what are we all to make of this. We know the great books are
not always "the way" ( Jews were exterminated to the music of Classical
musicians, for example). This is a postmodern question of sorts.

The postmodern turn questions the "progress" theme of modernity. Modernity, it
is said, helped make concentration camps. This Steve L said before. The
postmodern turn questions this progressive education and hits to the heart and
the soul.

When Catholic priests quit the church yet remain religious then I suggest a
kind of postmodern event is displayed. ( Chris Loynes is working on this issue
right now).

When people say that George Bush Jnr and bin Laden are the same and try and
seek out another way to communicate then I suggest ONE KIND of postmodernity is
well expressed.

In terms of Outdoor Adventure Education and Experiential Learning (OAE) I can
only begin to suggest that you keep on going as stong as you can. I am trying
and if there are, there are !!!, many others trying to do , then maybe
something comes of it all.

Steve L has responded and his words are, for me, damned good words. You have
responded and Sarah too. Damned good questions and damned good thoughts. Wil
has added another dimension to this chat. This is already strange. Why? Because
there maybe a kind of "centre" here. There maybe a kind of communication
possible.

The postmodern issue is this : can we allow this to be open and still be
together?

That is why I used the W. B. Yeats ( "Second Coming") , which was a favourite
of Kurt Hahn in my first post and also in my recent work that is not really
important.

Let me now wait a little. Others have things to say. I can also sit back and
enjoy the list. I mean that very seriously. There are "other voices" - let me
be quiet for awhile and let me enjoy the company of convivial deeds.

Let me enjoy the company of others - at this stage of life I have done the best
that I can in the situation - let me "be" just as I might "teach" sometimes
with folk that must always "be" themselves. This is a "double-duty" of
postmodern education.

Like I tried to say before this postmoden turn maybe a Ivan Illich dream come
true but if that dream is to be OK for most folk then "learning" is not always
"paying". I am saying here that a convivial atmosphere does not need to "pay"
with "cash". I guess I am saying that any postmodern turn is in itself
suspicious.

Thanks Ian for letting me blow my winds of dis-content into a "outres" archive.

happy new year
steve bowles



Ian Fong wrote:

> Greetings to all from Eastern Canada,
>
> I have found the ongoing discussions (since I joined the list-serv) very
> interesting.  I have been away from the world of academia for a year now.
> It feels good to be in on such a great sharing of ideas.
>
> First of all, thanks to Wil R.  I share your uncertainty regarding diving
> into the unknown waters of the ongoing debates and discussions.  What the
> heck do "I" know, and how much can I really contribute that would stand out
> against what has been put forth already?  I took courage from your own
> posting and admission (yours too Sarah), and from the encouragement of
> other contributors (Steves L.and B., James...).  Now that I have taken the
> plunge, I hope to make some useful contributions in the future.
>
> Wil, I agree with your ideas on criticism.  Critical thought is necessary
> to personal development and the growth of ideas.  However, criticism is
> often most useful when tempered.  Use a shit sandwich or what other
> technique you find best.  On the receiving end, I have usually responded
> better to constructive feedback versus being lambasted or ridiculed.  This
> concept, which seems to be fundamental to Outdoor Education, should also be
> fundamental here in the forum where we open ourselves up, bare our souls
> and share thoughts, ideas and beliefs.
>
> We should also remember that critical thought should begin at home.  Before
> picking apart someone else's ideas, analyze our own.  What are the merits
> and short-comings of our own ideas?  What can we do to improve upon them?
> Starting at square one, like this, should enable us to provide better
> criticism to others, being respectful about it and helping offer new ideas
> in return.
>
> Sarah, thank you for your question regarding Post-Modernism.  I am also
> clueless about this concept.  The two Steves did a good job at trying to
> explain the concept, although I will have to read Steve B.'s reply a few
> more times.  I am sure I still only understand P-M at a very basic level,
> and his reply left me at the starting line with my shoes untied.
>
> James and the two Steves, can you suggest some good reading material to the
> rest of us, to better prep us for further and future discussions?
>
> Ian Fong
>
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