Re: vengence and forgiveness

You might consider several of Kieslowski's in his Decalogue, the film with
the confrontation between the ethicist and holocaust survivor in particular.

Roberta Morris




>From: Automatic digest processor <[log in to unmask]>
>Reply-To: Film-Philosophy Salon <[log in to unmask]>
>To: Recipients of FILM-PHILOSOPHY digests <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: FILM-PHILOSOPHY Digest - 2 Apr 2001 to 3 Apr 2001 (#2001-74)
>Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:15:35 +0100
>
>There are 12 messages totalling 409 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
>   1. the postmodern subject-request.
>   2. Colombian Cinema (2)
>   3. Political Films
>   4. Forgiveness (7)
>   5. 5.10 London Film Report
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 02:22:58 +0100
>From:    fili houtman <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: the postmodern subject-request.
>
> >I don't think I really understand your question.  There is a body-subject
> >that
> >is identifiable in the action, but the subject-narrator's thought
>processes
> >are revealed through association with various consumer products.  His
> >homicidal acts/fantasies (not clear which) even seem to be a version of
> >some
> >pychological profile of a serial killer.  He is a walking advertisement
>for
> >Madison Avenue and PSYCHOLOGY TODAY.  The fury alone seems his own.  I
> >haven't
> >thought a lot about this--it just seemed like a good film for anyone
> >looking
> >at contemporary depictions of the postmodern "subject."
> >
> >Kathy Agar
>
>I have taken the care to extract the pictures from the videotapes, and it
>was good to see Patrick Baitman again on the screen. I liked the Foucaldian
>dissociation between the narrative and the desarolling images. I could not
>have watched it otherwise, especially the beginning, which is slow like
>mud,
>but then it get's exciting, when the characters starts to exchange their
>credit cards, and Patrick does 1000 abdominos in front of the T.V., and he
>wants his skirts well cleaned. The impression I have are that the
>character's mentality is evoluting from the beginning to the other end, and
>this is somewhat conceptually [ie.prior to realisation of the film], sound,
>quite exciting, as I have been saying previously. But the wastes in the
>Film, is in the editing, which is not well cut. And the actors are not made
>as valuable, as you said yesterday. On the other side of the film, is the
>interrogation one can ask, is, whether, if these character's are really
>made
>realistical enough, so that the spectator can learn something from this
>movie, and not just stay tuned between the two sides: images and off screen
>commentary. It seems the progressions, and the different steps of the
>character's lineament within the film, is stuttering in reason of the sets
>of ideas which are here only roughly develloped: 1/Patrick with objects,
>2/Patrick with Music with Violence 3/Money with Woman 4/The proposed
>subject
>of the film, what I said should be of interest, is developped so rapidly:
>the Patrick's side of the Psychosis./ the rest I shall not ruin such a
>wonderfull experience: the movie ends with the eyes of Patricks.//: Too
>much
>attention is paid on Patrick, and the Psychosis, the theme of the film is
>not desarolled. I am myselve a psycho, and my sickness, which you have
>spotted perfectly well with your answer to my message, saying: that you did
>not understand my question, is typicall of what I dayly experience in
>outside life, outside of the Internet, I was meaning to you, and then, what
>I realize now, is HOW much I am similar in kind in the character of
>Patrick,
>only so that it was not said in the movie, and I could not feel the
>possibility to identify truly with the character, what is precisely what I
>tried to say to you in my previous mail, and that you seem to not have well
>understood, but it's not important. To recapitulate: Too much of
>impressions
>goes to Patrick's Baitman, and not enough to it's influences, and the
>influences of it's objects which as you interestingly suggest, constitute
>the CHARACTER as exposed IN this film, (American Psycho); the influences
>going from one object to one other, because of the editing which is too
>shallow, and editing of the (champs-contre-champs) are marking the pivoting
>shape, more of that narrative, and image, friction, than either abolishing
>it, or re-asserting, affirmatively, according to a, somewhat Higher
>purpose,
>than the one of our video screen tonight.//
>now what you say to me;//~
>I am sorry, I find what you write too sweet with Am.Psycho, may be you are
>not as Psycho as me, and cannot understand me as you understand the film,
>and you are more interested in film, than with actors, and acting, and you
>act well. But I am so psycho today., ah, yes I had a question while
>watching
>the movie: do you know of another film which as such a strange character's
>development, but more spiky, with an Original character, but in film, not
>like American Psycho.
>
>Fili Houtman.
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:59:24 +0100
>From:    Kirill Galetski <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Colombian Cinema
>
><html><P>Dear Everybody:</P>
><P>I am interested in finding some sources on Colombian cinema, and/or
>opening a dialogue with a specialist or authority in this field.</P>
><P>Sincerely,</P>
><P>Kirill Galetski.</P><br clear=all><hr>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from
>MSN Hotmail at <a
>href="http://www.hotmail.com">http://www.hotmail.com</a>.<br></p></html>
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 06:26:12 -0700
>From:    Jim Crocamo <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Political Films
>
>VHS copies of THE WAR GAME and EDVARD MUNCH are
>available from facets for purchase, and I think
>PUNISHMENT PARK is available to rent from them.  LA
>COMMUNE and THE FREETHINKER are available in PAL, info
>is on the website about those.  Used copies of THE
>GLADIATORS can sometimes be found on auction sites,
>like eBay.
>
>-Jim
>
>--- Daniel Sayer <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
> > Thanks for the link to Peter Watkins site..very
> > interesting...
> > despite it seeming I'll never get to see
> > them...unless I show them
> > myself...
> >
> > Other political filmmakers not mentioned but who
> > deserves greater respect
> > is Emile D'Antonio...similiarities with Watkins
> > perhaps
> >
> >
> > Daniel Sayer
> > Copy Handler
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>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:51:48 -0600
>From:    Mike Awalt <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Forgiveness
>
>  I am doing some work for both an upcoming course and for a philosophy
> > and film book, in the areas of vengeance and forgiveness.  I have had
>no
> > trouble finding films which deal with vengeance, but have not had as
> > easy a time selecting films that deal with forgiveness.  If anyone has
>
> > some suggestions of films that deal with the concept of forgiveness, I
>
> > would appreciate a response.
> > Thanks!
>Mike Awalt
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 12:04:51 -0500
>From:    Staven Bruce <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Forgiveness
>
>I think a film that directly compares and contrasts vengence and
>forgiveness, with forgiveness eventually becoming the dominant theme
>would be Abel Ferrara's "The Bad Lieutenant".
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Mike Awalt [mailto:[log in to unmask]]
>Sent: Tuesday, April 03, 2001 11:52 AM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Forgiveness
>
>
>  I am doing some work for both an upcoming course and for a philosophy
> > and film book, in the areas of vengeance and forgiveness.  I have had
>no
> > trouble finding films which deal with vengeance, but have not had as
> > easy a time selecting films that deal with forgiveness.  If anyone has
>
> > some suggestions of films that deal with the concept of forgiveness, I
>
> > would appreciate a response.
> > Thanks!
>Mike Awalt
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 18:09:16 +0100
>From:    Donato Totaro <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: 5.10 London Film Report
>
>The problem is that the classical films 'everyone knows' usually do not
>'move' in interesting ways (re Deleuze's 'movement-image' vs.
>'time-image'). Tarr's films, and others whose films are less
>popular/populist (Dreyer,  Sokoruv,  Tarkovsky,  Kiarostami, Angelopolous,
>Antonioni, etc.) do 'move interestingly'. This is not exactly a popular vs.
>art dichotomy (one could argue that Matrix 'moves interestingly'); but
>concepts are rarely foregrounded for investigation or concretized into
>'theme'  in popular film (movement, time, thought, space, etc.). Just a
>thought in support of Sutton's interesting thoughts on a wonderful (yet
>hard to find) film, Damnation (I have not yet seen Tarr's latest he
>discusses).
>
>At 12:04 PM 4/2/01 -0400, you wrote:
> >the project proposed by daniel frampton, to respond to "the 'thinking' of
> >the films' formal actions (movement, framing, colours, shifts, etc.) . .
>."
> >seems of great interest . . . but for many of us there's no way to
> >see how precisely it plays out in practice since we don't have access
> >to these films . . . so i, for one,  would like to see daniel -- or other
> >filmosophers, for that matter -- try the same project as self-consciously
> >but applied to other more widely available films . . . might even be
>worth
> >approaching a film everone already knows to see what happens when
> >it's treated this way
> >
> >mike
> >
>Donato Totaro
>[log in to unmask]
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 13:09:35 EDT
>From:    Eric willstaedt <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Forgiveness
>
>would be Abel Ferrara's "The Bad Lieutenant".
>
>The above film is good, but very seedy and makes you want to shower for a
>week afterwards.
>
>
>
>These may be of help...
>
>IMDb name and title search
>
>                          A search for 'forgive' found the following
>results:
>
>                          25 'title' matches (i.e. movies, TV, video etc):
>
>                             1.Would You Forgive Her? (1916)
>                             2.Would You Forgive? (1920)
>                             3.Forgive and Forget (1923)
>                             4.Forgive and Forget (2000) (TV)
>                             5.Forgive Me Father (2000)
>                             6.Should a Wife Forgive? (1915)
>                             7.Forgive Us Our Debts (1991) (V)
>
>                          Show all 25 matching titles (some titles may
>match multiple times).
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 10:10:18 -0700
>From:    "Rothermel, Dennis" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Forgiveness
>
>For an unusual depiction of forgiveness, try Eric Rohmer's The Marquise of
>O... (1976), which is based upon the 1808 novella by Heinrich von Kleist.
>
>Dennis Rothermel
>California State University, Chico
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Mike Awalt
> > Reply To:     Film-Philosophy Salon
> > Sent:         Tuesday, April 3, 2001 9:51 AM
> > To:   [log in to unmask]
> > Subject:      Forgiveness
> >
> >  I am doing some work for both an upcoming course and for a philosophy
> > > and film book, in the areas of vengeance and forgiveness.  I have had
> > no
> > > trouble finding films which deal with vengeance, but have not had as
> > > easy a time selecting films that deal with forgiveness.  If anyone has
> >
> > > some suggestions of films that deal with the concept of forgiveness, I
> >
> > > would appreciate a response.
> > > Thanks!
> > Mike Awalt
> >
> >
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 21:29:15 +0500
>From:    INDRANIL CHAKRAVARTY <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Colombian Cinema
>
>dear kirill,
>there are two good articles on contemporary colombian cinema in ann marie
>stock (ed), 'framing latin american cinema', univ of minnessota press, 1997
>best wishes,
>indranil
>
>
>At 01:59 PM 4/3/01 +0100, you wrote:
> >Dear Everybody: I am interested in finding some sources on Colombian
> >cinema, and/or opening a dialogue with a specialist or authority in this
> >field. Sincerely, Kirill Galetski.
> >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
> >
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 00:27:55 +0500
>From:    INDRANIL CHAKRAVARTY <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Forgiveness
>
>mike,
>may sound funny to you but I can think of an Indian film titled
>"Astha"(Reliance) that deals directly with this theme. It is directed by
>Basu Bhattacharya.
>indranil
>
>At 10:51 AM 4/3/01 -0600, you wrote:
> > I am doing some work for both an upcoming course and for a philosophy
> >> and film book, in the areas of vengeance and forgiveness.  I have had
> >no
> >> trouble finding films which deal with vengeance, but have not had as
> >> easy a time selecting films that deal with forgiveness.  If anyone has
> >
> >> some suggestions of films that deal with the concept of forgiveness, I
> >
> >> would appreciate a response.
> >> Thanks!
> >Mike Awalt
> >
> >
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Wed, 4 Apr 2001 09:08:57 +1200
>From:    Sean Cubitt <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Forgiveness
>
>Mike
>
>How about Kieslowski's Three Colours Red which doesn't so much
>portray as investigate firgivenness. There's also a negotiation of
>the space between forgivenness and renunciation in one of the world's
>finest films, Guru Dutt's Pyaasa. Both films, howveer, raise
>questions about the nature of forgivenness both psychologically but
>also in the cosmic scheme of things as seen from two very different
>cultural traditions and might make the argument over-complcated.
>
>Can I ask which philosophical traditions you're delving into?
>
>sean
>
>--
>Sean Cubitt
>Screen and Media Studies,
>University of Waikato,
>Private Bag 3105,
>Hamilton,
>New Zealand
>T: Dept: +64 (0)7 838 4543
>T: Direct: +64 (0)7 856 2289 ext 8604
>F: +64 (0)7 838 4767
>http://www.waikato.ac.nz/film
>http://www.ucl.ac.uk/slade/digita
>http://www.dundee.ac.uk/people/sean/welcome.html
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date:    Tue, 3 Apr 2001 14:34:22 -0700
>From:    Cole Drumb <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: Forgiveness
>
>Sean Penn covered this ground interestingly in both his directorial debut
>The Indian Runner as well as his second film The Crossing Guard. You
>should check them out.
>
>c.
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of FILM-PHILOSOPHY Digest - 2 Apr 2001 to 3 Apr 2001 (#2001-74)
>*******************************************************************

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