Richard: I like your posting OK but want again to stress that there is no
evidence that Cathars had a social doctrine that can be described as
apostolic or even that they favored egalitarian teachings. And this is
especially so where we have available the opinions of the lay "credentes"
as against the quasi-ecclesiastical "perfecti," who were, after all, far
more liable to play at being apostolic. Could the "credentes" instead
have essentially wanted to adhere to those beliefs that enabled them to
reject orthodox authority and its church? Is it not possible that what
they may have disliked even more than its "vices" was the church's
increasing penetration of, or intrusion into, social behaviour and life,
the rapidly developing penitential system, the confessional, law vs usury,
education, and perhaps such actions as the active prosecution of crime in
civil society, etc.? If one thinks along these lines, one is drawn to
question the "reformist" element in heretical thought so strongly
emphasized by past generations, especially Protestant ones. As to Nelli
and Weber, pity the grand old Dutchman, there's so little "inner-worldly
ascetic" in N's Cathars! But I agree, its a cute thought. John
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