Hello John, Tracy and James - thanks for comments. I think there are quite
many that relate to these words in general. I had one posting asking for
help to find out about those social and philosophical theorists that John
mentioned. This post was in private and understandably so. But below I will
give a couple of references that might help illuminate and kindle some warm
fire-side talks.

It is indeed a shame that the more and more literature gets published in OAE
generally the less and less serious and in-depth work is seen and/or felt.
Tracy I think this is both a lack of in-depth work as it is also ( and a
related) an expression of the market that wishes for "no real alternatives"
and becomes "one-dimensional" expressed as a "happy consciousness". The
market-value is, as Georg Simmel wrote ( he wrote on the outdoors and
adventure) always a case of anything can find "value" and that means
everything. Money itself is that exchange which values anything and
everything and there is no need for judgement in terms of humanitas and
caritas.

We might remember Erich Fromm calling this the "Crisis". Simmel called it
one aspect of the tragedy of life. Marc called it the "farce". A good debate
here was begun by Juha Suoranta ( 1996 journal of adventure education and
outdoor leadership - " The Possibilities of Education in the Culture of
Violence" ) and waits to be tackled.

Concerning Foucault there is a thesis from 1995/6 by Thomas Gedde Hojland
called " The Scout Movement and Outward Bound : a case study in the
sociology of modern and postmodern politics of identity" . This dissertation
is available from the University of London - Institute of Education.  This
thesis might help some to begin a new path and it might certainly help
discussions to be opened up. I for one enjoyed that thesis even though
finding dis-agreement.

Concerning Colin Wilson ( "The Outsider") as James mentions there is indeed
a good debate here. The "St Neots" factor of Colin Wilson has many
connections to education and outdoor experiences that "awaken" in someway.
Yes I agree but this point, as James says, goes further into that tragedy of
consciousness and culture which must be worked at hard. Such is the position
of Paolo Freire and his experiential pedagogy when he says that we struggle
to get away from that naive consciousness but that is what transformation is
all about however much we find our selves "dropping back" into that
routinised world.

What I am saying is that there are folk around but these folk are "silenced"
( new students are silenced) through the globalisation of spiders webbery
and cook-book recipes where the volume of print is related to
money-for-money. When students are almost forced to absord these
easy-to-copy formularic recipes then all critical awareness is lost to an
idle following of the high priests and the new guardians of truth. Shame
that. But there are other voices.

very best wishes

steve bowles

John Quay wrote:

> Hi everyone
>
> I read the message from Steve as raising an issue akin to "local versus
> global" or "part versus whole", not in a dualistic way but rather as a
> dialectic where all is related. "Where are we?" is a question that can
> be answered as a reference on a global map or a description of the local
> bioregion; the two, however, should be related. How does the experience
> at Mt. Kenya relate with interpersonal relationship aims designed for
> improving work practice? They seemingly relate quite well if the total
> picture/system you are viewing is the practice of OE/AE/AP (etc.). They
> maybe don't relate as well if the dialectic is true to the system as a
> whole, of which OE/AE/AP is only just a part. As Steve identified, there
> are a number of further relations between what we are doing and the
> larger world which need to be questioned. This, I think, shows a
> fundamental "need". As members of the field of OE/AE/AP (etc.) we should
> remember, in the context of our work, that we are not the whole, but a
> small part. Our philosophy is not yet grounded in the larger arguments
> of our day and the preceding history. I have read OE/AE/AP articles that
> refer to Dewey, Plato, Thoreau - (this does show the influence of the
> Americans, although it may just be problems with my literature search
> skills). Has anyone in our field criticised the work of Dewey, Plato,
> Thoreau or discussed other people's criticisms of their thoughts. What
> about other philosophers, other points of view? I am definitely no
> expert here, but how does our field sit with the work of people such as
> Marx, Weber, Bourdieu, Heidegger, Foucault, etc.? We need some people to
> start getting into situating us within philosophical time and space, as
> well as the more physical meanings normally attributed to these terms.
> This may not meet the immediate needs of the "industry" but the long
> term health benefits of knowing a bit more about your place in the
> larger scheme of things, your identity in the "bigger pond", issomething
> worth striving for, especially if it does help us to more clearly
> perceive what it is we are actually doing (amongst all the other things
> going on in the world). Anyway - some thoughts and proposed actions
> which I don't yet put my hand up for - but I'd love to read any work
> that others may have written/found in this area!





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