----- Original Message -----
From: "George Simmers" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 29 July 2000 01:09
Subject: Re: outburst in defence of Martin Johnston
I'd say judge socialism by
| socialist regimes, just as one might judge Christianity by Christian
| regimes, Islam by Islamic regimes, capitalism by capitalist regimes.
If I do that, then I come to the conclusion that civilisation is nasty,
brutish, mean and over long. I think that is a defensible view of the world;
but I don't like the working.
Are we really to judge an ideology on the basis of the behaviour of those
who don't live by that ideology or religion but say that they do?
All poetry is bad. Look at William McGonagall.
| Idiocy? Too easy an interpretation.
So is that, George...
I think equating Capitalism and Fascism is too simple.
| But this is a poetry list, so think of Auden. *THE* Left poet of the 30s -
| but when he re-read The Orators later in life he said it read like the
work
| of someone who could easily have become a Fascist.
Well I met a bloke the other day who agrees with me. I mentioned Auden and
Shaw, but he said he was right; so there you are. Not convinced? Let me
analyse...
Step 1: Auden was *thought *to *be a left poet.
Step 2: we'll take left as a synonym of socialist.
Step 3: when he was no longer thought of as a left poet, he said he thought
one of his books, written when he was thought to be a left poet, now read to
him like the work of one who could easily have become a fascist...
Step 4: Clearly then (to give it an Aristotelean verisimilitude) Socialism
is the same as Fascism
I think we could argue that x, because he eats fish fingers, is a
paedophile, with a few more steps, if we used that method
| Mussolini's fascism in particular used a dynamic modernising language (not
| unlike Tony Blair's). Efficiency, getting rid of red tape (i.e
| constitutional safeguards), getting rid of the enemies of progress, etc.
It
| had a big appeal to idealists, including many socialists.
Yes?... I wouldn't want to argue that people don't make mistakes, that
people aren't
seduced. But that's the seduction doing that, not the ideology
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Hamilton" <[log in to unmask]>
To: <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 29 July 2000 03:37
Subject: Re: outburst in defence of Martin Johnston
| When I made the analogy I was n't really thinking of
| Marxism-Leninism, more just of social democracy. I
| guess it doesn't really matter.
| PS It's worth remembering that not all the people who
| call themselves communists are Marxist-Leninists.
I didn't mention M-L, but I am even more surprised at the idea that social
democracy and fascism are akin
| But the point really should be not that commies
"commies" are something else again. I never met a commie.
L
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