At 03:17 PM 6/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>R. I. Moore addresses the relationship between the Patarenes and the
>Gregorian reform, including its anti-clerical aspects, in his essay,
>"Family, Community, and Cult on the Eve of the Gregorian Reform."  It was
>in Past and Present about 20 years ago; I don't have the reference handy.

Moore, R.I., "Family, Community and Cult on the Eve of the Gregorian
Reform", Transactions, Royal Historical Society, 5th series, vol. 30
(1979), 46-69

>He also treats the Paterenes in _The Origins of European Dissent._  I think
>both treatments are relevant to this line of inquiry.  

he argues two key points (which i'm not sure he'd agree with now, much to
my disappointment... i like his earlier work on this subject)
a) the papal reform in gregory's hands sided with elements of popular
religious enthusiasm that was aroused by reformers who look alot like
donatists: zealous, aggressively demanding of the priests as a category
that *necessitates* moral behavior.  these charismatic holy men were often
of noble birth, who gained their social power by renouncing the more
traditional forms of power -- sex, money, violence. (This is what Peter
Brown called "clean power" in his book on the relic cults, and it
represents a dramatic shift in the tenor of  latin xnty -- from one in
which the "only good saint was a dead saint" to a world constantly
producing live (and dangerous) saints.)

b) that this ecclesiastical support of popular and highly demanding popular
religiosity explains what the french call the "creux heretique" of the
latter 11th cn: after 50 years of unusual variety and vividness of accts of
"popular heresy", for the next 50 years we have virtually none in the
documentation.  answers a school of historians in which i wd include the
later malcolm lambert and the early r.i.moore (and myself): the kind of
religious enthusiasm that marked the earlier period (i wd say erupted in
the earlier period), was channeled by the "papal revolution" (better name
than "gregorian reform") into institutionally acceptable forms, but only by
a flirtation with donatism that one might characterize as a form of
technical virginity.  "i didn't say the simoniac priest's mass wasn't good.
 just don't go to it."

>Also relevant, but
>not on the Patarenes, is Amy Remensnyder's article "Pollution, Purity, and
>Peace" in T. Head and R. Landes, _The Peace of God: Social Violence and
>Religious Response around the Year 1000_.

yes. she provides a key link.  as RIMoore argues in the "Community" article
cited above, there's a direct link btwn the peace of god and the papal
reform, and one element of this is an immensely popular religious discourse
that joins elites and commoners in a collective moral effort, the role of
public and popular opinion.

richard landes

>Patrick Nugent.
>>In a message dated 99-06-07 13:50:42 EDT, you write:
>><< Has anyone mentioned the Patarini on N. Italy.  My memory of the
>> literature on them is that they have a tie into the Gregorian attack on
>> simony. >>
>>Weren't they the Milanese sect who started the whole reform movement around
>>the year 1040?  If that is so, wouldn't it be better to say that the
>>"Gregorian" reforms legitimized the anticlerical movement?
>Patrick J. Nugent
>Department of Religion
>Earlham College
>Richmond, Indiana 47374 USA
>(765) 983-1413
>[log in to unmask]
Richard Landes
Department of History		Center for Millennial Studies at Boston University
Boston University		Boston University
226 Bay State Road		704 Commonwealth Ave. Suite 205
Boston MA 02215		Boston MA 02215
617-353-2558 (of)		617-358-0226 (tel)
617-353-2781 (fax)		617-358-0225 (fax)
[log in to unmask]		[log in to unmask]