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Mr. Martin: actually I was using the, I thought, standard distinction between proskinesis and latria. One venerates many saints; one prays, surely TO only the lord alone; I'd think the other prayers/salutations were 'through' rather than 'to'. Pardon Tillinghast On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Dennis D. Martin wrote: > Date: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 11:42:29 -0500 (CDT) > From: Dennis D. Martin <[log in to unmask]> > Reply-To: [log in to unmask] > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: Ave Maria > > > > On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Pardon E. Tillinghast wrote: > > > One suggestion: the Ave Maria is NOT a prayer; it's a salutation. We pray > > to God alone. Thus 'Amen" doesn't belong at the end of it. Pardon > > Tillingahst > > It would seem that you are employing a definition of prayer that restricts > prayer to God. The modern Ave Maria explicitly asks the Blessed Virgin to > pray for us. The original Ave Maria would properly be termed a > salutation, though I don't know why a salutation cannot also be a prayer. > Prayer can consist of many things: making requests for oneself, making > requests for others, giving praise (the > prayer life of medieval monks and nuns consistedly in large measure of > prayers of praise, the Psalms) etc. One does not, of course, pray to Mary > _in the same way_ that one prays to God. But as the now archaic common > usage in English indicates, we may call any request of another person a > prayer: "I pray thee, please take this letter to the governor." > > The request made of Mary is similar to that made of other saints: > requesting her prayer on my behalf or on the behalf of others I am > concerned about. It is a prayer, a request; one may also praise Mary (not > as God but as the most exemplary mere human person), which is what the > "salutation" part of the modern Ave Maria consists of. > > One may, of course, define prayer narrowly, but that would not be a > standard way of defining prayer. Perhaps Pardon Tillinghast was > employing a narrow definintion analogously with what has happened to the > word "worship" in modern English. It was once was used, by degrees, for > both humans and God--one ascribed various degrees of worth to people, > based on their social status, and thus could be said to be offering > worship to them. The highest level of worth-ship, of course, was reserved > for God alone. Today, however, the word is used only for ascribing > worthiness to God. In some circles, particularly Protestant and perhaps > secular circles, the word "prayer" has perhaps made this evolution. But I > don't think one can assume it has made this evolution for everyone. > > However, I have not checked contemporary dictionaries or the OED, so I am > willing to be corrected. > > Dennis Martin > Loyola University Chicago > > %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%