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As normal I over simplified and over complicated... what I meant: *Does anybody know of any poems that are about how they might not have been written, or might have been written otherwise, or might have expressed another sense of what the poem is about?* On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 06:30, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > I'm not sure if you're being dismissive of the idea? > > I defined 'reference' wrong, as some true expressions like "nobody posts > more than me" are usually, it seems, not thought of being referential. As > nonrmal, I over-simplified something and made myself look like an idiot > > https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/reference/#NonRefExp > > Luke > > > On Tue, 20 Nov 2018 at 01:20, jesse <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Yes to all of your speculating, Luke, about referentiality and how it >> could >> be used when discussing poetics. The variations that you ring on that >> concept are equally valid given that neuroscience and A.I. is on track to >> negate most of what linguistics and philosophy has to say about the >> matter. >> Jesse >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 14:08:12 +0000 >> From: Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Referentiality as contingent >> >> I've just finished a MA in writing, and reached a tentative conclusion >> that the referentiality of texts are contingent. >> >> By 'referentiality' I probably mean the same as in langpo, the quality of >> referring. My degree was in philosophy, so I feel comfortable with >> 'refer', >> and I suppose I'd paraphrase it as what words, phrases or sentences need >> do >> in order to be true, whatever you think "truth" is (correspondence, >> coherence, etc.) about something. By 'contingent' I mean that it could >> have >> been different, or otherwise, as Foucault claims about history; a word >> philosophers of science use quite regularly when talking about natural >> laws >> and empirical observation. >> So, in total, I think I mean the same as Saussure does in his introduction >> to linguistics: a claim that the word "tree" is arbitrary; because outside >> our linguistic conventions, which I think he calls "parole", the word >> might >> just as well refer to something beside a tree. >> But I might not be asking about structuralism, which has been quite dead >> since the 60s or 70s. >> >> So how, if at all, might a phrase like *contingency of referentiality or >> reference* be involved in contemporary poetics? >> >> Thanks for any reply, >> Luke >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS automatic digest system >> Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2018 9:05 AM >> To: [log in to unmask] >> Subject: BRITISH-IRISH-POETS Digest - 18 Nov 2018 to 19 Nov 2018 >> (#2018-296) >> >> There are 7 messages totaling 946 lines in this issue. >> >> Topics of the day: >> >> 1. What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for >> contemporary poetics? (4) >> 2. Referentiality as contingent >> 3. Keith Waldrop and Sarah Cave: A review >> 4. Peter Riley >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:11:41 +0000 >> From: Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for >> contemporary poetics? >> >> What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for >> contemporary poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading contemporary >> poetry they enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any >> grounding in commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking >> call that lack a "poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was >> just to echo the little I know: >> >> 1. in their own words >> 2. strong words >> 3. the poet in the world (levertov) >> 4. collected prose -- creeley then olson >> 5. some stuff on poetics by, say, perloff >> 6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book >> 7. then I suppose just criticism / commentary on poetry you like. >> >> So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as >> background >> reading. >> >> Cheers for any help, >> Luke >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:40:11 +0000 >> From: Gerard Greenway <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list >> for >> contemporary poetics? >> >> That is a question you can put to the list. >> However, I would get a copy of this (you can get it secondhand for little >> more than £10). Read it through. That will give you a good grounding. >> >> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poetry-Theory-Anthology-1900-2000-Anthologies/dp/0631225544/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542631015&sr=8-1&keywords=poetry+theory >> >> >> >> >> Gerard Greenway, managing >> [log in to unmask]: Journal of the >> Theoretical Humanities >> - Increase of frequency to six issues from 2018 -Angelaki >> homepageAngelaki >> facebookAngelaki Humanities book series >> >> On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:11:56 GMT, Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> >> wrote: >> >> What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for >> contemporary >> poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading contemporary poetry they >> enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any grounding in >> commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking call that lack >> a >> "poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was just to echo the >> little I know: >> 1. in their own words2. strong words3. the poet in the world (levertov)4. >> collected prose -- creeley then olson5. some stuff on poetics by, say, >> perloff6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book7. then I suppose just criticism / >> commentary on poetry you like. >> >> So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as >> background >> reading. >> Cheers for any help,Luke >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:41:06 +0000 >> From: Gerard Greenway <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list >> for >> contemporary poetics? >> >> Apologies list, I though Luke had written me a person mail. >> >> On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:40:11 GMT, Gerard Greenway >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> That is a question you can put to the list. >> However, I would get a copy of this (you can get it secondhand for little >> more than £10). Read it through. That will give you a good grounding. >> >> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poetry-Theory-Anthology-1900-2000-Anthologies/dp/0631225544/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542631015&sr=8-1&keywords=poetry+theory >> >> >> >> >> Gerard Greenway, managing >> [log in to unmask]: Journal of the >> Theoretical Humanities >> - Increase of frequency to six issues from 2018 -Angelaki >> homepageAngelaki >> facebookAngelaki Humanities book series >> >> On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:11:56 GMT, Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> >> wrote: >> >> What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for >> contemporary >> poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading contemporary poetry they >> enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any grounding in >> commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking call that lack >> a >> "poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was just to echo the >> little I know: >> 1. in their own words2. strong words3. the poet in the world (levertov)4. >> collected prose -- creeley then olson5. some stuff on poetics by, say, >> perloff6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book7. then I suppose just criticism / >> commentary on poetry you like. >> >> So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as >> background >> reading. >> Cheers for any help,Luke >> >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 12:45:47 +0000 >> From: Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list >> for >> contemporary poetics? >> >> That looks super! Thanks Gerard. >> >> best, >> Luke >> >> On Mon, 19 Nov 2018 at 12:41, Gerard Greenway < >> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> > Apologies list, I though Luke had written me a person mail. >> > >> > >> > On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:40:11 GMT, Gerard Greenway < >> > [log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > That is a question you can put to the list. >> > >> > However, I would get a copy of this (you can get it secondhand for >> little >> > more than £10). Read it through. That will give you a good grounding. >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Poetry-Theory-Anthology-1900-2000-Anthologies/dp/0631225544/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1542631015&sr=8-1&keywords=poetry+theory >> > >> > >> > Gerard Greenway, managing editor >> > [log in to unmask] >> > *Angelaki: J**ournal of the Theoretical Humanities* >> > *- Increase of frequency to six issues from 2018 -* >> > Angelaki homepage <http://www.tandfonline.com/toc/cang20/current> >> > Angelaki facebook <http://www.facebook.com/AngelakiJTH> >> > Angelaki Humanities book series >> > <http://www.manchesteruniversitypress.co.uk/series/angelaki-humanities/ >> > >> > >> > >> > On Monday, 19 November 2018, 12:11:56 GMT, Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> > wrote: >> > >> > >> > What would you recommend to someone as a basic reading list for >> > contemporary poetics? Someone that is, let's assume, reading >> contemporary >> > poetry they enjoy, and writing it, but perhaps completely lacking in any >> > grounding in commentary etc., by poets of critics. I'd broadly speaking >> > call that lack a "poetics", and I hope that makes sense... my advice was >> > just to echo the little I know: >> > >> > 1. in their own words >> > 2. strong words >> > 3. the poet in the world (levertov) >> > 4. collected prose -- creeley then olson >> > 5. some stuff on poetics by, say, perloff >> > 6. the l=a=n=g=u=a=g=e book >> > 7. then I suppose just criticism / commentary on poetry you like. >> > >> > So 4 and 6 sound exciting but then they might need the others as >> > background reading. >> > >> > Cheers for any help, >> > Luke >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> > link: >> > >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> > link: >> > >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> > >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 14:08:12 +0000 >> From: Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Referentiality as contingent >> >> I've just finished a MA in writing, and reached a tentative conclusion >> that the referentiality of texts are contingent. >> >> By 'referentiality' I probably mean the same as in langpo, the quality of >> referring. My degree was in philosophy, so I feel comfortable with >> 'refer', >> and I suppose I'd paraphrase it as what words, phrases or sentences need >> do >> in order to be true, whatever you think "truth" is (correspondence, >> coherence, etc.) about something. By 'contingent' I mean that it could >> have >> been different, or otherwise, as Foucault claims about history; a word >> philosophers of science use quite regularly when talking about natural >> laws >> and empirical observation. >> So, in total, I think I mean the same as Saussure does in his introduction >> to linguistics: a claim that the word "tree" is arbitrary; because outside >> our linguistic conventions, which I think he calls "parole", the word >> might >> just as well refer to something beside a tree. >> But I might not be asking about structuralism, which has been quite dead >> since the 60s or 70s. >> >> So how, if at all, might a phrase like *contingency of referentiality or >> reference* be involved in contemporary poetics? >> >> Thanks for any reply, >> Luke >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 15:56:24 +0000 >> From: hardPressed poetry <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Keith Waldrop and Sarah Cave: A review >> >> Hi all >> Apologies for cross-posting. >> My review of two Guillemot Press titles,*Of And >> <https://www.guillemotpress.co.uk/poetry/keith-waldrop>* by Keith >> Waldrop, >> and* like fragile clay < >> https://www.guillemotpress.co.uk/poetry/sarah-cave>* >> by Sarah Cave, is now live on Elliptical Movements. >> >> >> https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/keith-waldrop-and-sarah-cave-a-review/ >> < >> https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/keith-waldrop-and-sarah-cave-a-review/ >> > >> Keith Waldrop and Sarah Cave: A review >> < >> https://ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/keith-waldrop-and-sarah-cave-a-review/ >> > >> Of And, Keith Waldrop, Guillemot Press, 2018, £6.00 like fragile clay, >> Sarah Cave, Guillemot Press, 2018, £9.00 The arc of Keith Waldrop’s poetic >> career is a movement from verbosity to minimalism, … >> ellipticalmovements.wordpress.com >> >> >> Best >> >> Billy >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2018 19:04:39 +0000 >> From: Luke <[log in to unmask]> >> Subject: Re: Peter Riley >> >> I could be a little off, but yeah, if Peter Riley is thrown into the >> "trash >> can of history", then they can take everything that followed him too! >> >> Luke >> >> On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 12:01, Tim Allen < >> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> > Yes, I second all of that. My poetry arguments with Peter are to do with >> > some of his opinions but because I rate his poetry so highly it makes >> any >> > difference in opinion about poetry all that pressing. >> > >> > Cheers >> > >> > Tim >> > >> > On 17 Nov 2018, at 08:57, Chris Ozzard wrote: >> > >> > Dear Peter, >> > >> > Forthright >> > Umbilical >> > Chastened >> > Knots >> > >> > ' >> > Exterminate >> > Moloch! >> > >> > I just want to reassure you that you are in my opinion one of the finest >> > poets of your generation still active today in the UK. >> > >> > Your 'Strange Family' (12 songs) published by Rosemary Waldrop in 1968 I >> > still treasure. I own number 88 of the 250 copies. Without its >> > soliloquies, >> > and earthing parodic imitation of Prynnne's 'day light songs' led to >> JH' s >> > oeuvre, it's bathic in intensity. >> > >> > Your 'Ospita' when in the altruism of Thatcherism was published in the >> > 'new british poetry' in 1988 became a game changing experience for me as >> > young writer and editor. These ludic sonnets are rhapsodies on the >> human >> > threshold of pain, their fluidity in mannerist foils are deeply >> sarcastic >> > it took me years to absorb. They tend to the meditation on harm. >> > >> > My copy of Passing Measures is well worn having been carried on numerous >> > walks to read and quiet my agrophobia. I adore your Sea Watches, which >> for >> > me have brought solace in the deepest moments of ill health and are >> some >> > of >> > the most beautiful poems written in Wales. Their absence from Goodby & >> > Davies' s definitive anthology The Edge of Necessary is a blunder. >> > >> > And from 'Alstonefield: a poem' "Red flicker where things leave us, >> white >> > blades / where they advance." "Poetry occupies it's moment completely, >> > like >> > heroin, it is deeply convincing, but does it know the truth?" >> > >> > I love your work ... thank you Peter... >> > >> > Chris Ozzard >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> > link: >> > >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> > >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> End of BRITISH-IRISH-POETS Digest - 18 Nov 2018 to 19 Nov 2018 (#2018-296) >> ************************************************************************** >> >> >> ######################################################################## >> >> To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following >> link: >> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1 >> > ######################################################################## To unsubscribe from the BRITISH-IRISH-POETS list, click the following link: https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=BRITISH-IRISH-POETS&A=1