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> hangs whatever characteristics

No offence to anyone involved at all but the post did make me feel very
sleepy

Luke

On 10 August 2018 at 20:58, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Yes he does. And hangs whatever characteristics he pleases on it.
>
> On 10 August 2018 at 20:51, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> > avant-garde turf wars... a gentle and unassuming biker is delicious
>>
>> he says your name a lot.
>>
>> Luke
>>
>> On 10 August 2018 at 20:44, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> It's not possible for me to reproduce all the exchanges here, you have
>>> to delve through the 1997 archives and the messages don't hang on just one
>>> thread. But I did say that I had realised that bikers, prison, Anglo-Saxon
>>> and the poetry scene have a commonality - they do - it's that gang culture
>>> features in all. Here is Bill Griffiths, from this list, displaying exactly
>>> the mindset of literary gang warfare: he turns me into a member of London's
>>> avant-garde turf wars and close associate of someone at that point I had
>>> never met.
>>> I never met Griffiths: I did meet many bikers in my youth and the idea
>>> of a gentle and unassuming biker is delicious. I do like his attacking me
>>> for using long words, the voice of the pseudo populist itself.
>>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> Apologies for putting David Bircumshaw in such a flurry.  I assumed
>>> that after his work on my behalf in 'Angel Exhaust' 12 - after the
>>> editorship had mysteriously passed to Andrew Duncan - that he would
>>> scarcely be surprised at my responding.  His provocation was after
>>> all not unakin to shoving me in the ear with an umbrella with a
>>> horse's head handle.
>>>
>>> Now here the average list member can check the internet site for
>>> 'Angel Exhaust' if they like and see if I am being oversensitive
>>> about his contribution or not. That very same issue embellished by
>>> David Bircumshaw contained an unsatisfactory assessment of Eric
>>> Mottram, while earlier issues contained abusive assessments of Bob
>>> Cobbing and his work, with the occasional germinal poke at my good
>>> self.
>>>
>>> This is the context in which David Bircumshaw chose to place his
>>> curious re-writing of one my shortest poems.  So short, that it
>>> hardly needed a Bircumshaw at all to point out its short-comings.
>>> Nonetheless he valiantly strives to make as much muck and
>>> pig out of nine lines as he can.  I would say this was very much
>>> placing himself at the forefront of the campaign against a few
>>> targeted poets, which flowered so spectacularly in Andrew Duncan's
>>> article for 'First Offence'.
>>>
>>> Why do I object to David Bircumshaw claiming an anti-right
>>> stance for his critical mirage?  Because the main figures
>>> attacked by his associate Andrew Duncan are Eric Mottram and
>>> Bob Cobbing.  That this is some harmless expression of mutual
>>> rivalry between Cambridge and London I beg to disbelieve; it
>>> seems to me more significant that these two have been key
>>> figures in a socialist-democratic expansion of modern culture -
>>> not by any overtly political action, but by a generous disposition
>>> to encourage innovation and experiment, as against the rather
>>> elite, exclusive, and negative image of European High Culture
>>> Andrew Duncan seems to me to propagate.
>>>
>>> What else is there to link David Bircumshaw and Andrew Duncan?  A
>>> very considerable similarity of tone and attitude I should say.
>>> They share the same dependence on Freudian assumptions (David
>>> Bircumshaw, mailing of 8 Nov 1998 re puns and Andrew Duncan on
>>> poetry as confession in essay on Bob Cobbing in 'Angel Exhaust'
>>> 9-10).  The same defensive ploy of resorting to rare words and
>>> unexplained elite concepts (David Bircumshaw's recent mailings and
>>> Andrew Duncan passim).  They also share a sort of self-mystification
>>> process, as though they chose to locate in some startling scifi
>>> situation of Jack Vance.
>>>
>>> I am not saying that David Bircumshaw and Andrew Duncan share one
>>> brain.  I have no evidence on this subject at all.
>>>
>>> But it does seem to me odd, that David Bircumshaw should somehow
>>> naturally see abstract words as alternatives to insults.  Again,
>>> this rings remarkably like the tendency to personal abuse that
>>> Andrew Duncan has come to favour recently.  He can hardly have
>>> misunderstood my preference for facts over abstractions when it
>>> comes to serious assessment of any subject.  But perhaps in all
>>> this he coincides with Andrew Duncan purely by coincidence, and
>>> it is evidence of no cultural connection or sympathy at all.
>>>
>>> How can we test it?  By deeds, surely, rather than words.
>>>
>>> Will David Bircumshaw withdraw his mangling of my poem from
>>> publication and from the internet and apologise?
>>>
>>> I do not expect any amazing revelation or denunciation.  I merely
>>> ask him to be a little less evasive about his position, and little
>>> more considerate before he single anyone out again for would-be
>>> worldwide dishonour. This is surely the way - rather than treating us
>>> to lots of long words - to establish his name for fairness and
>>> objectivity.
>>>
>>> bill
>>> [log in to unmask] <https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?LOGON=A2%3Dind98%26L%3DBRITISH-IRISH-POETS%26F%3D%26S%3D%26P%3D1942750>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 August 2018 at 19:57, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I sound like a dick, sorry. Just pseudo sticking up for David, and
>>>> annoyed that no-one else uses this list except to mourn dead friends...
>>>> People are mostly just people, would be nicer to have a discussion of the
>>>> poetry.
>>>>
>>>> Luke
>>>>
>>>> On 10 August 2018 at 19:48, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> > My impression was, precisely, of a 'gentle and unassuming man'. And,
>>>>> yes, he lived on the breadline
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something. I'll buy some books.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 10 August 2018 at 19:40, Hampson, R <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for this. I knew Bill from the 1970s onwards - and this
>>>>>> fits with my sense of him. I heard him talking about Old English poetry; I
>>>>>> heard him reading on numerous occasions; and I met up with him at Westfield
>>>>>> when he was archiving Eric Mottram's papers. My impression was, precisely,
>>>>>> of a 'gentle and unassuming man'. And, yes, he lived on the breadline - and
>>>>>> died far too soon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> *From:* British & Irish poets <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> on behalf of Paul Holman <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> *Sent:* 09 August 2018 21:21:12
>>>>>> *To:* [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Bill Griffiths: August 20
>>>>>>
>>>>>> David, would you care to explain, carefully & slowly, what you mean
>>>>>> by that remark. I knew Bill Griffiths well back in the day, & he was a
>>>>>> gentle & unassuming man, located so far from any kind of literary privilege
>>>>>> that the bulk of his writing was issued as very obviously home made spiral
>>>>>> bound pamphlets. He lived on the breadline, & spent time among bikers, in
>>>>>> prison, & on a houseboat before settling deeply into life at Seaham, all a
>>>>>> very long way from centres of cultural power & influence. He died in middle
>>>>>> age, with a tiny readership & plenty of work left to do, & I see absolutely
>>>>>> no reason to carp that his poetry, which is absolutely breathtaking at its
>>>>>> best, is receiving a degree of attention & celebration now.
>>>>>>
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>>>>>> ############
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>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
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>
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