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On 13 May 2018 at 09:12, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> *Red hot* pursuit? I'm sorry, I've no idea what I'm saying anymore.
>
> Cheers,
> Luke
>
> On 13 May 2018 at 09:07, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>> Roque Dalton was keen to be a true Marxist, until his comrades shot him.
>>
>> Commodification though is boring, and narks me. I have seen so many
>> poets, of the left included, who have turned themselves into a product, a
>> neatly wrapped verbal package. Yawn yawn. What we need is a return to
>> aggressive vitriolic reviewing, it might not help anyonme's writing, but
>> could fool the punters into thinking something is really at stake. Bring
>> back Ian Hamilton from the after hours I mean life, Geoffrey Grigson too,
>> even if it means Jane's cookbooks as well. Most of all, distant Lord,
>> resurrect FR Leavis (with Queenie in hot pursuit of meaning)
>>
>> Dave
>>
>> On 13 May 2018 at 02:58, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>>> If I may add an actual third post in a row?
>>>
>>> I wonder how this discussion might link to 'commodification'? We might
>>> want to think that, mainstream / or underground, our authentic selves are
>>> somehow over and above commodification, even if our behavior, even
>>> imagination, is not. I know that some of you are Marxists, and, I assume,
>>> better ones than me. So what, then?
>>>
>>> Luke
>>>
>>> On 12 May 2018 at 23:56, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was just looking at Ashbery's 'Europe', and was struck by its
>>>> *decisiveness*. Does that have anything to do with it? I mean, I think
>>>> everyone agrees that 'authenticity' is primarily about the self, and its
>>>> freedom )from?), so that could be one of those good answers, apparently
>>>> trivial? Anyway, maybe better not to pin it down.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Luke
>>>>
>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 22:47, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Well IME, as someone recovering from a "schizophrenia" diagnosis, it
>>>>> can be.
>>>>>
>>>>> Luke
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 21:35, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> All written language is a foreign language.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Luke
>>>>>> Sent: May 12, 2018 4:11 PM
>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>> Subject: Re: on verbs in poetry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > The language of authenticity is  a learned behavior.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And Ashbery's "language"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Luke
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 20:10, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The language of authenticity is  a learned behavior.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: David Bircumshaw
>>>>>>> Sent: May 12, 2018 2:32 PM
>>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: on verbs in poetry
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes.Tristan. But for instance Peter Porter wrote poems about losing
>>>>>>> his wife. Surely those were equally authentic.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 18:56, Tristan Moss <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She lost an adult son. Read the poem by Riley Luke. Here’s a link
>>>>>>>> to it. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n03/denise-riley/a-part-song
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> She just has a great way with words and the ability to choose just
>>>>>>>> the right one. Of course, this adds to the authenticity of the voice.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12 May 2018, at 18:31, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not suggesting that you haven't! Just suggesting that one can't
>>>>>>>> decide from your description, anymore than you can from knowing the Riley's
>>>>>>>> (or at least, the author) lost a baby.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Luke
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 18:29, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Surely it's impossible to say without reading it
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > Tom Paulin, an otherwise fan, regarded it as 'adolescent'.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Luke
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 09:02, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This interesting Tim, and knotty, but it has the feel of real
>>>>>>>>>> discussion. One might almost say authentic :)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> DH Lawrence could well be called authentic. Yet he was also
>>>>>>>>>> rhetorical and pretentious, all those dark gods that had no place wandering
>>>>>>>>>> the streets of an imagination made a bus ride from Nottingham.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Is Peter Reading's 'C' authentic? A hundred pieces of prose
>>>>>>>>>> behaving like poems each a hundred words long written in a style au naturel
>>>>>>>>>> but as artificial and calculated as a wedding song by Spenser. A fake
>>>>>>>>>> fiction about cancer by a man who once had it and another time would die
>>>>>>>>>> from it. Tom Paulin, an otherwise fan, regarded it as 'adolescent'.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Are the best-selling Birthday Letters authentic?? Is Maya Angelou
>>>>>>>>>> ditto?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 11 May 2018 at 11:44, Tim Allen <0000002899e7d020-dmarc-reques
>>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes exactly Luke, the 'how' is still missing, at least in the
>>>>>>>>>>> sense of describing a 'how' that was special to Riley. I used the word
>>>>>>>>>>> 'authentic' because of its innate problems - it is one of the most
>>>>>>>>>>> difficult terms to use when applied to the arts, but nevertheless I think
>>>>>>>>>>> my use of it in the context of Riley is 'authentic'.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Perceptions of and identifying authenticity in music is an even
>>>>>>>>>>> more contentious - the process that leads from authentic feeling and
>>>>>>>>>>> expression first to model/form then to simulacrum and finally to soulless
>>>>>>>>>>> golem (e.g. x factor or whatever) is almost impossible to untangle.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Tim
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 11 May 2018, at 02:03, Luke wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm still missing a *how*. No-one is innately authentic, so how
>>>>>>>>>>> does one go about it? Incidentally. I was recently listening to Kurt
>>>>>>>>>>> Cobain, of Nirvana, ha, and it struck me so, also. So not limited to
>>>>>>>>>>> poetry, anyway!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
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