Welcome to the club On 13 May 2018 at 09:12, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > *Red hot* pursuit? I'm sorry, I've no idea what I'm saying anymore. > > Cheers, > Luke > > On 13 May 2018 at 09:07, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> Roque Dalton was keen to be a true Marxist, until his comrades shot him. >> >> Commodification though is boring, and narks me. I have seen so many >> poets, of the left included, who have turned themselves into a product, a >> neatly wrapped verbal package. Yawn yawn. What we need is a return to >> aggressive vitriolic reviewing, it might not help anyonme's writing, but >> could fool the punters into thinking something is really at stake. Bring >> back Ian Hamilton from the after hours I mean life, Geoffrey Grigson too, >> even if it means Jane's cookbooks as well. Most of all, distant Lord, >> resurrect FR Leavis (with Queenie in hot pursuit of meaning) >> >> Dave >> >> On 13 May 2018 at 02:58, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> If I may add an actual third post in a row? >>> >>> I wonder how this discussion might link to 'commodification'? We might >>> want to think that, mainstream / or underground, our authentic selves are >>> somehow over and above commodification, even if our behavior, even >>> imagination, is not. I know that some of you are Marxists, and, I assume, >>> better ones than me. So what, then? >>> >>> Luke >>> >>> On 12 May 2018 at 23:56, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>> >>>> I was just looking at Ashbery's 'Europe', and was struck by its >>>> *decisiveness*. Does that have anything to do with it? I mean, I think >>>> everyone agrees that 'authenticity' is primarily about the self, and its >>>> freedom )from?), so that could be one of those good answers, apparently >>>> trivial? Anyway, maybe better not to pin it down. >>>> Cheers, >>>> Luke >>>> >>>> On 12 May 2018 at 22:47, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Well IME, as someone recovering from a "schizophrenia" diagnosis, it >>>>> can be. >>>>> >>>>> Luke >>>>> >>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 21:35, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> All written language is a foreign language. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: Luke >>>>>> Sent: May 12, 2018 4:11 PM >>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>> Subject: Re: on verbs in poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> > The language of authenticity is a learned behavior. >>>>>> >>>>>> And Ashbery's "language"? >>>>>> >>>>>> Luke >>>>>> >>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 20:10, Mark Weiss <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> The language of authenticity is a learned behavior. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: David Bircumshaw >>>>>>> Sent: May 12, 2018 2:32 PM >>>>>>> To: [log in to unmask] >>>>>>> Subject: Re: on verbs in poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes.Tristan. But for instance Peter Porter wrote poems about losing >>>>>>> his wife. Surely those were equally authentic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 18:56, Tristan Moss <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> She lost an adult son. Read the poem by Riley Luke. Here’s a link >>>>>>>> to it. https://www.lrb.co.uk/v34/n03/denise-riley/a-part-song >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> She just has a great way with words and the ability to choose just >>>>>>>> the right one. Of course, this adds to the authenticity of the voice. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12 May 2018, at 18:31, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Not suggesting that you haven't! Just suggesting that one can't >>>>>>>> decide from your description, anymore than you can from knowing the Riley's >>>>>>>> (or at least, the author) lost a baby. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Luke >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 18:29, Luke <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Surely it's impossible to say without reading it >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> > Tom Paulin, an otherwise fan, regarded it as 'adolescent'. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Luke >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 12 May 2018 at 09:02, David Bircumshaw <[log in to unmask]> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> This interesting Tim, and knotty, but it has the feel of real >>>>>>>>>> discussion. One might almost say authentic :) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> DH Lawrence could well be called authentic. Yet he was also >>>>>>>>>> rhetorical and pretentious, all those dark gods that had no place wandering >>>>>>>>>> the streets of an imagination made a bus ride from Nottingham. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Is Peter Reading's 'C' authentic? A hundred pieces of prose >>>>>>>>>> behaving like poems each a hundred words long written in a style au naturel >>>>>>>>>> but as artificial and calculated as a wedding song by Spenser. A fake >>>>>>>>>> fiction about cancer by a man who once had it and another time would die >>>>>>>>>> from it. Tom Paulin, an otherwise fan, regarded it as 'adolescent'. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Are the best-selling Birthday Letters authentic?? Is Maya Angelou >>>>>>>>>> ditto? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11 May 2018 at 11:44, Tim Allen <0000002899e7d020-dmarc-reques >>>>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes exactly Luke, the 'how' is still missing, at least in the >>>>>>>>>>> sense of describing a 'how' that was special to Riley. I used the word >>>>>>>>>>> 'authentic' because of its innate problems - it is one of the most >>>>>>>>>>> difficult terms to use when applied to the arts, but nevertheless I think >>>>>>>>>>> my use of it in the context of Riley is 'authentic'. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Perceptions of and identifying authenticity in music is an even >>>>>>>>>>> more contentious - the process that leads from authentic feeling and >>>>>>>>>>> expression first to model/form then to simulacrum and finally to soulless >>>>>>>>>>> golem (e.g. x factor or whatever) is almost impossible to untangle. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Tim >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 11 May 2018, at 02:03, Luke wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I'm still missing a *how*. No-one is innately authentic, so how >>>>>>>>>>> does one go about it? Incidentally. I was recently listening to Kurt >>>>>>>>>>> Cobain, of Nirvana, ha, and it struck me so, also. So not limited to >>>>>>>>>>> poetry, anyway! >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>> >> >