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Thank you Felicity, I'm a magician but also trained in scientific research methods, which offer invaluable help in understanding human processes in religion and magic, in a field that has hardly just begun. Your post is a fantastic answer to the one that started this thread, which to me was not scientific at all, as another earlier post also succinctly pointed out. regards Melissa On 29 April 2018 at 11:51, Oluwatoyin Vincent Adepoju < [log in to unmask]> wrote: > thanks for that rich presentation, Felicity > > toyin > > On 28 April 2018 at 23:11, F Grove <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> I think I am one of those who is the other way around. My profession is >> Scientist, specifically Biochemistry. I am also a bit of a dabbler in the >> magic.. Perhaps because I have been embroiled in science and after many a >> debate with fellow Pagans, it is clear that quite a few people are not >> entirely sure what actually is science and scientific thinking. >> >> Science is an approach to looking at the world in order to make sense of >> it. It is concerned with the how of nature and not the why which is the >> realm of religion. Recently, I have found myself presenting at academic >> conferences on religion where I pipe up in group discussions when they come >> close to crossing the line into science is bad. At these conferences a >> number have had difficulty understanding that it is possible, without >> losing authenticity, to be both Scientist and Pagan. What is essentially >> the same can be summarized as both being in awe of nature. >> >> A scientist will only use the word ' never' to say that she/he/they will >> never say never. The proverbial door must always remain open for the >> possibility of another explanation for something existing and how something >> works. It is here where my interest lies. Science cannot explain >> everything and nor does it profess to. I have heard the ridiculous claim >> by some people that they only believe in what we know. No scientist would >> ever agree both in 'only what we already know' (which has implications for >> the future of research!) and the belief part (belief is simply >> unnecessary). It is the beauty, the awe, the mystery which are driving >> forces for scientists. >> >> In my own professed field, biochemistry has progressed in fits and starts >> largely because of developments in technology. Possibly the most notable >> recent one was the development of methods to isolate and be able to see the >> order (sequencing) of the nucleotide base sequences in DNA leading to a >> very practical use - DNA fingerprinting. Had we known centuries ago that >> it would be possibly to identify individuals by just a mere fingerprint we >> might have been burnt at the stake! >> >> My point is that science cannot (yet) explain magic. Scientists can >> never say that it does not. What we can say is that repeatable, >> quantifiable, well controlled, etc. essentially application of scientific >> method, efforts to measure it have elucidated us thus far. Research to >> gain such evidence is not well funded and thus there is not a lot of it >> going on. There are some excellent centers that are doing just that. >> Half the battle with research, even if it is good research, is getting it >> published. (Trust me I know and fortunately not directly involving me!) >> >> Mysticism does not need to be closed off to the scientist. There is much >> work to be done in research. Older science has been reductionist where as >> newer ones involve group effects. I am hopeful that there will be further >> developments in approach to doing science that still have the scientific >> method at its core that will clearly demonstrate what it is that is going >> on when we do magic. >> >> Felicity >> >> >> >> To whom it may concern: >> >> I've spent the last several years studying science instead of mysticism >> throughout history. I've found science to be the true study of knowledge >> and the best way to advance the human intellect and philosophies. >> I still find magic and mysticism interesting in a historical and >> entertainment sense, but I also find it to be based wholly on fantasy >> rather than facts. That being said, the entire subject of religion and >> spirituality is a delusional fantasy created and evolved from early human >> times and wholly in error. >> Even so, there are things to learn in the study of magic and mysticism. >> I just hope the group will not conflate its study with facts and reality >> other than how those delusions and mistaken ideas have led us astray. >> >> Yours in the spirit of education and study, >> Marc >> >> On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 2:33 PM, Shazdair <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >>> To whom it may concern: >>> >>> I've spent the last several years studying science instead of mysticism >>> throughout history. I've found science to be the true study of knowledge >>> and the best way to advance the human intellect and philosophies. >>> I still find magic and mysticism interesting in a historical and >>> entertainment sense, but I also find it to be based wholly on fantasy >>> rather than facts. That being said, the entire subject of religion and >>> spirituality is a delusional fantasy created and evolved from early human >>> times and wholly in error. >>> Even so, there are things to learn in the study of magic and mysticism. >>> I just hope the group will not conflate its study with facts and reality >>> other than how those delusions and mistaken ideas have led us astray. >>> >>> Yours in the spirit of education and study, >>> Marc >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic [mailto: >>> [log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sarah L. Veale >>> Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 6:36 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC Digest - 24 Apr >>> 2018 to 26 Apr 2018 (#2018-16) >>> >>> Dear Pavel, >>> >>> Your student may be interested in some of the resources collected on the >>> Network for the Study of Esotericism in Antiquity (NSEA) website. >>> >>> Under the topic "Magic & Divination" we have links to several online >>> databases and resources for ancient magical texts and objects: >>> https://ancientesotericism.org/magic-divination/magic/ >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Sarah L. Veale, BA (Hons.), MA >>> Doctoral Student >>> Department of History >>> York University >>> Co-director, Network for the Study of Esotericism in Antiquity >>> AncientEsotericism.org >>> SarahVeale.com >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic < >>> [log in to unmask]> On Behalf Of ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC >>> automatic digest system >>> Sent: April 26, 2018 6:03 PM >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Subject: ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC Digest - 24 Apr 2018 to 26 Apr 2018 >>> (#2018-16) >>> >>> There are 2 messages totaling 383 lines in this issue. >>> >>> Topics of the day: >>> >>> 1. Fw: Symposium Supernatural Places Revisted >>> 2. a database of magical textx? >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:17:43 +0200 >>> From: Pavel Horák <[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: a database of magical textx? >>> >>> Dear ASM members, >>> >>> I have one particular question and would like to hear your comments on >>> that: >>> >>> Have you ever encountered a special database focused on sources dealing >>> with magic? >>> >>> I do not mean EBSCO or Jstor, but whether is there any databases of a >>> similar sorts but mainly with original writings dealing with magic etc. We >>> have been discussing this matter with a colleague of mine and I realized I >>> was not able to answer him completely. He would be particularly interested >>> in ancient Rome and Greece, Babylonia, Egypt,.. >>> >>> Thank you for your help and suggstions :-) >>> >>> Mgr. Pavel Horak >>> >>> Department for the Study of Religions >>> University of Pardubice >>> Czech Republic >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> End of ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC Digest - 24 Apr 2018 to 26 Apr 2018 >>> (#2018-16) >>> ************************************************************ >>> ************** >>> >>> >>> --- >>> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >>> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >>> >> >> >