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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Do you think apud Lud. could be 'at Louth' or 'at Ludborough'?  These are in Lincolnshire on the river Lud, 25 miles from the cathedral.   Th dictionary of English place names gives Louth as Luda and Lude and a grand Cistercian Abbey there as Hludnsis monasterii.  I don't know if the bishop held a court there though so will check. 

thanks again, everyone
On Monday, 15 January 2018, 22:46:53 GMT, Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

I would suggested that apud Lud. means "at London," as in Ludgate. Also, infra mansum as beneath his dwelling. Otherwise, I agree.

Tom Izbicki



From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Nicola Lowe <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 5:37:46 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass
 
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
That is really great, thank you very much.  

On Monday, 15 January 2018, 22:35:32 GMT, Jane Stemp Wickenden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture


Nicola, for what it's worth from someone out of practice: -

On the ides of May in the 5th year of Louis[?] the bishop agreed how great a fee to impose on master John de Grey, knight, so that he could celebrate divine office in the chapel below his property* of Cogges so long as it was decently and honestly done by him and his wife and children of his household by a priest licensed at his own cost without prejudice to the mother church of Cogges as far as it was pleasing to the wishes of the bishop of the same [church]. And this he did with the consent of the prior of Cogges etc.

*on the assumption mansus, a French land unit the equivalent of a hide.

Jane


On 15/01/2018 21:56, Jane Stemp Wickenden wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Thank you Monica, there probably is such a chance :-)

Jane

On 15 January 2018 21:06:31 GMT+00:00, Monica Tobon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I have very little familiarity with medieval Latin, but is there any chance divina could be a neuter substantive plural meaning ‘divine things’ as a circumlocution for the mass?
 
From: [log in to unmask]"> Jane Stemp Wickenden
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass
 
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Nicola

I think "constructo ... fuerit" suggests that the chapel has already been built and I don't think it is a chantry chapel.

I've tried to translate but I am struggling (out of practice!) especially with mansum, which ought to be a participle of maneo, to remain; and by the apparent lack of a noun to accompany the adjective divina.  Would you mind awfully checking your transcript?

Regards

Jane


On 15/01/2018 11:54, Nicola Lowe wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I wonder if anyone could offer an accurate translation of the text below please.  It is a licence given to John Grey of Rotherfield (1272-1311) in May 1304 for mass to be said for himself, his wife and family in an 'oratorio' at Cogges, Oxfordshire.  At this date, he was married to Margaret Oddingsell (1277- before 1359) and they had two small sons. The manor was held in dower by his grandmother, the elderly Isabel Duston, who died later that year. Margaret received the property in dower when John died in 1311. There was a substantial mid thirteenth-century manor house just east of the church which contained a rectangular building with pointed windows, possibly a chapel.  The church next door to the manor has an elaborately furnished north chapel of c 1330-50, apparently commemorating Margaret though no foundation documents have been found.
 
The text is a short entry in the register of John Dalderby (d.1320), Bishop of Lincoln, Lincs Archives, Dioc/Reg/3 f. 82 v.
 
 

“Concessio cantar' domini Iohannis de Grey.

Idi maii. anno quinto apud Lud'. concessit episcopus utentum quantum imposuit domino Iohanni de Grey militi quod posset facere celebrari diuina in oratorio infra mansum suum de Coges constructo dummodo decens fuerit et honestum sibi et uxori sue ac libere familie eo per licentiam sacerdotem propriis sumptibus exhibendum absque preiudicio matricis ecclesie de Coges usque ad ipsius episcopi beneplacitum uoluntatis. et hoc fecit de consensu prioris de Coges. etc
.”

(Transcription. Dr Andrew Dunning, Curator of Medieval Historical Manuscripts, 1100–1500, The British Library)

 
 
I can get the general sense but not the detail and would like to clarify the following:
 
Is the oratory definitely a private chapel within the manor house or could it be the chapel in the parish church? 
Is it yet to be built or does it already exist?
Is the mass a chantry mass?
Were licences transferable between buildings? If so, could the licence have been granted for a private chapel in the manor house pending the construction of the chantry chapel in the church next door? 
 
I apologise for asking so many questions but would be very grateful for any help.
 
Thank you very much
 
Nicola Lowe
 


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