medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
This is all a really great help, thank you everybody.  

kind regards

Nicola

On Tuesday, 16 January 2018, 22:17:51 GMT, Gordon Plumb <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
The Bishop of Lincoln had a large manor at Louth - one of several across the Diocese.

Gordon Plumb


-----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]>
To: MEDIEVAL-RELIGION <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Jan 16, 2018 9:57 pm
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

It looks as if it has to be Louth.

Tom Izbicki


From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <MEDIEVAL-[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Gordon Plumb <000000648c720e9f-dmarc-[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 3:18:01 PM
To: MEDIEVAL-[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass
 
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
My immediate thought was that Lud referred to Louth. I have just checked some of the episcopal registers published by the Lincoln Records Society
 and they contain examples of documents from Louth (in the index of one with Luda in  brackets after Louth).

Gordon Plumb

-----Original Message-----
From: Rosemary Hayes-Milligan and Andrew Milligan <[log in to unmask]>
To: MEDIEVAL-RELIGION <MEDIEVAL-[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Tue, Jan 16, 2018 7:51 pm
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture 
Hi Rob
 
Interesting what you say about Cogges - as you say, an alien priory with an income of £16 in 1291.  Unlike other alien cells, it does seem to have had a (small) resident body until it was seized by Henry V (Knowles & Hadcock, Medieval Religious Houses).
 
However, I don't think there is any bishop involved beyond the bishop of Lincoln, who was the ordinary of the place.  I think 'ad ipsius episcopi beneplacitum ' means 'at the pleasure of the same bishop' - i.e. the bishop making the grant, the bishop of Lincoln.
 
Best wishes,
Rosemary
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"> Rob Durk
To: [log in to unmask]" ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"> [log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear Nicola, et al.

In no way a detraction of any of the below, but a few circumstantial comments..

Cogges church was served from Cogges Priory, an extremely poor alien foundation of the Benedictine Abbey of Fècamp (where Bénédictine liqueur is produced). The priory had a very small income indeed and, I would suspect, this is the likely reason that not only the prior is involved but also the 'episcopi' of the Mother Church at Fècamp which, not being a diocese, I would think may refer to a mitred abbot. Basically the priory is trying to ensure that their small income from the parish isn't going to be reduced further by having an alternative source of sacraments and sacramentals on their patch.

The prior at the time of the license was William de Limpeville (Limpevilla). He gets a brief mention in Dugdale's Monasticon. The whole priory barely gets a paragraph, mind!

Cheers

Rob



From: Rosemary Hayes-Milligan and Andrew Milligan <[log in to unmask]>
To: MEDIEVAL-[log in to unmask]
Sent: Tuesday, 16 January 2018, 18:26
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture 
Dear Nicola
 
I have been busy or would have answered sooner.  These licences are not uncommon and you would be able to find many in the published bishops' registers - most easily located in the volumes published by the Canterbury and York Society, but also in local record societies' series.
 
1) My initial reaction was that 'Lud' was Louth - the bishops had a manor there so it would be one possible place that the bishop would be acting.  Ludborough is, I suppose, possible but less likely.  Pace Thomas, I don't think it can be Ludgate.  If the bishop was in London, he would be more likely to be dating his acts from his house at 'Old Temple' - Vetus Templum I think.  If Gordon Plumb is reading this, he may like to confirm Lud' as Louth - or not!
 
2) Infra mansum - surely means within (or simply 'in') the house/mansion/dwelling of John  Grey at Cogges. Your archaeological notes seem to confirm this.
 
3) The point is that the bishop is granting the licence to John so long as his employing a priest to celebrate Mass does not derogate from the parish church of Cogges, which the reference to Cogges Priory implies was served from, or in the patronage of, Cogges Priory.
 
4) The marginal note 'Concessio cantar..' implies that the bishop's registrar, at least, thought that the Masses celebrated would be for the souls of John and his family.  A 'chantry' does not have to have a building associated exclusively with it.  For example, Bishop Alnwick of Lincoln established a chantry for his and his benefactors' souls for five years - the Masses to be celebrated (he did not specify where) in Lincoln cathedral.  So it would seem that John has built a chapel in which he is allowed to employ a priest to celebrate for him - so long as he does not neglect his duties to the parish church and its patron.
 
5) I have to admit that I have not tried to translate the text word for word and bow to the expertise of better Latin scholars than me!  I'm not quite sure what 'utentum quantum imposuit' means
 
6) The grant is dated in the fifth year of the bishop's episcopate and is made at the bishop's pleasure (cf many other examples in the CYS volumes), so presumably he could withdraw the licence, I think.
 
I hope this helps a bit.
 
Rosemary Hayes
----- Original Message -----
From: [log in to unmask]" ymailto="mailto:[log in to unmask]" target="_blank" href="mailto:[log in to unmask]"> Nicola Lowe
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Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 9:28 AM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Do you think apud Lud. could be 'at Louth' or 'at Ludborough'?  These are in Lincolnshire on the river Lud, 25 miles from the cathedral.   Th dictionary of English place names gives Louth as Luda and Lude and a grand Cistercian Abbey there as Hludnsis monasterii.  I don't know if the bishop held a court there though so will check. 

thanks again, everyone
On Monday, 15 January 2018, 22:46:53 GMT, Thomas Izbicki <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I would suggested that apud Lud. means "at London," as in Ludgate. Also, infra mansum as beneath his dwelling. Otherwise, I agree.
Tom Izbicki


From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <MEDIEVAL-[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Nicola Lowe <00000b7da7e83e86-dmarc-[log in to unmask]>
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 5:37:46 PM
To: MEDIEVAL-[log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass
 
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
That is really great, thank you very much.  

On Monday, 15 January 2018, 22:35:32 GMT, Jane Stemp Wickenden <[log in to unmask]> wrote:


medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Nicola, for what it's worth from someone out of practice: -
On the ides of May in the 5th year of Louis[?] the bishop agreed how great a fee to impose on master John de Grey, knight, so that he could celebrate divine office in the chapel below his property* of Cogges so long as it was decently and honestly done by him and his wife and children of his household by a priest licensed at his own cost without prejudice to the mother church of Cogges as far as it was pleasing to the wishes of the bishop of the same [church]. And this he did with the consent of the prior of Cogges etc.
*on the assumption mansus, a French land unit the equivalent of a hide.
Jane

On 15/01/2018 21:56, Jane Stemp Wickenden wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Thank you Monica, there probably is such a chance :-)

Jane

On 15 January 2018 21:06:31 GMT+00:00, Monica Tobon <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I have very little familiarity with medieval Latin, but is there any chance divina could be a neuter substantive plural meaning ‘divine things’ as a circumlocution for the mass?
 
From: [log in to unmask]"> Jane Stemp Wickenden
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2018 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: [M-R] Licence for Mass
 
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Nicola
I think "constructo ... fuerit" suggests that the chapel has already been built and I don't think it is a chantry chapel.
I've tried to translate but I am struggling (out of practice!) especially with mansum, which ought to be a participle of maneo, to remain; and by the apparent lack of a noun to accompany the adjective divina.  Would you mind awfully checking your transcript?
Regards
Jane

On 15/01/2018 11:54, Nicola Lowe wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I wonder if anyone could offer an accurate translation of the text below please.  It is a licence given to John Grey of Rotherfield (1272-1311) in May 1304 for mass to be said for himself, his wife and family in an 'oratorio' at Cogges, Oxfordshire.  At this date, he was married to Margaret Oddingsell (1277- before 1359) and they had two small sons. The manor was held in dower by his grandmother, the elderly Isabel Duston, who died later that year. Margaret received the property in dower when John died in 1311. There was a substantial mid thirteenth-century manor house just east of the church which contained a rectangular building with pointed windows, possibly a chapel.  The church next door to the manor has an elaborately furnished north chapel of c 1330-50, apparently commemorating Margaret though no foundation documents have been found.
 
The text is a short entry in the register of John Dalderby (d.1320), Bishop of Lincoln, Lincs Archives, Dioc/Reg/3 f. 82 v.
 
 
“Concessio cantar' domini Iohannis de Grey.

Idi maii. anno quinto apud Lud'. concessit episcopus utentum quantum imposuit domino Iohanni de Grey militi quod posset facere celebrari diuina in oratorio infra mansum suum de Coges constructo dummodo decens fuerit et honestum sibi et uxori sue ac libere familie eo per licentiam sacerdotem propriis sumptibus exhibendum absque preiudicio matricis ecclesie de Coges usque ad ipsius episcopi beneplacitum uoluntatis. et hoc fecit de consensu prioris de Coges. etc
.”
(Transcription. Dr Andrew Dunning, Curator of Medieval Historical Manuscripts, 1100–1500, The British Library)
 
 
I can get the general sense but not the detail and would like to clarify the following:
 
Is the oratory definitely a private chapel within the manor house or could it be the chapel in the parish church? 
Is it yet to be built or does it already exist?
Is the mass a chantry mass?
Were licences transferable between buildings? If so, could the licence have been granted for a private chapel in the manor house pending the construction of the chantry chapel in the church next door? 
 
I apologise for asking so many questions but would be very grateful for any help.
 
Thank you very much
 
Nicola Lowe
 


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