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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Thank you - that is extremely helpful!

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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Ihnat, K. (Kati) <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 14 July 2017 09:00:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
PS I now realise - while that applies to the Old Hispanic feast of Mary (on 18 December), because that was Spain's original feast of the Annunciation, it seems possible that the reasoning was transferred to the 25 March feast when the Roman liturgy was brought in. Maybe?

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Kati Ihnat  |  Lecturer in Medieval History  |  Radboud University Nijmegen  |  E9.01a  |  Postbus 9103  |  6500 HD Nijmegen

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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of Ihnat, K. (Kati) [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:55 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hello Teresa!

Actually, the reason for calling the feast 'the Incarnation' may go back to the legislation that established it - so, back to 656 at the tenth council of Toledo. It explicitly states: "For what is the feast of the mother if not that of the Incarnation of the Word? " (Canon 1; Toledo X: Nam quid festum est matris nisi incarnatio verbi? - Gonzalo Martínez Díez and Félix Rodríguez, ed. La colección canónica hispana. (V. Concilios hispanos: Segunda parte). Madrid: 1992, 520) Also, Ildefonsus' treatise (which may have been used in the liturgy for matins even in the 13th century) refers often to the Incarnation (Christology is a major element of the treatise and the Old Hispanic liturgy for Mary). It could be this legacy that is recalled then in the name of the feast.

Hope that's of help!

Kati


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Kati Ihnat  |  Lecturer in Medieval History  |  Radboud University Nijmegen  |  E9.01a  |  Postbus 9103  |  6500 HD Nijmegen

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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [[log in to unmask]] on behalf of James Bugslag [[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2017 1:01 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

What, I am wondering, did St Ildefonsus call it?

Jim


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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Teresa Witcombe <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: July 13, 2017 9:31:21 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Thank you both.


As a clarification, I'm particularly interested in who was calling this feast the Incarnation in the early 13th century. As far as I am aware, the standard name for the feast in Spain was the Annunciation. The text I am looking at from Toledo makes it clear that the author knew both names and thought the Incarnation was 'better' for some reason - so I'd be extremely interested to know if breviaries or liturgical documents in France or elsewhere were referring to the Annunciation as the Incarnation in this same period.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated!

Best regards,

Teresa



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From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of Richard Legault <[log in to unmask]>
Sent: 13 July 2017 13:22:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Annunciation/Incarnation

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I can't quote any Spanish sources but the logic seems easy enough to understand. The 25 March date is 9 months before 25 December (Nativity). For some, the moment of Incarnation was considered to be not the birth of Jesus but the moment the Virgin Mary conceived or became pregnant. That moment was understood to coincide with the announcement to Mary by the Angel Gabriel that she would conceive, as reported in Luke 1:26–38<http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%201:26–38:26&version=!>. Thus the Annunciation and the Incarnation, considering they occurred at the same time, can be celebrated on the same day.

Cheers,

Richard J Legault

On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 7:44 AM, Eileen Gardiner <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Hi,

I don’t have information specific to this place or time, but the dating system that set March 25 as the first day of the year, probably the most frequently used system in the M.A., was know as dating ab incarnatione. So this was not an unusual idea. There’s an article in Medieval Studies: An Introduction by Ware on “Medieval Chronology” that goes into the details.

Best,
Eileen


Eileen Gardiner
595 Main Street, Suite 605
New York, NY 10044
917-428-1404<tel:(917)%20428-1404>
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On Jul 13, 2017, at 6:41 AM, Teresa Witcombe <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
Dear all,

I'm emailing with a query about the feast of the Annunciation. I'm working on a liturgical document from Toledo, dated to 1227, in which the Annunciation is promoted to a major feast day. However the wording is interesting: the Annunciation 'which should be better described as the feast of the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ'.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what might have prompted this preference for 'Incarnation'? I have not found other examples of the Incarnation being used in other thirteenth-century Spanish documents, but is this the norm outside of Spain? Or are the two terms being debated elsewhere in this period?
Thank you!

Best regards,
Teresa

Teresa Witcombe

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