 |
 |
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Those who were following this thread may be interested to know that I could find no incidences of the phrase 'in specie panis' in PL for any writers still alive in 1215, though plenty for 11th and 12th centy. writers (and some earlier) including Lanfranc, Peter Abelard, Gratian, Peter Lombard, Aelred of Rievaulx and Peter of Celle. Thank you to every one who helped with this. Cate On 1 Jun 2014, at 12:43, Thomas Izbicki wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > Gary, > I went digging in the Patrologia Latina Database, & "sub speciebus" > appears in another context in Boethius' commentary on Porphyry (PL > 64). Any chance the Latin translations of Aristotle picked up > Boethius' terminology & it passed into the theology by that route? > This is the only version of the terminology "sub speciebus" relating > it to the Eucharist I found in the database: > PL Vol. 217 > Innocentius III: > INNOCENTII III ROMANI PONTIFICIS MYSTERIORUM EVANGELICAE LEGIS ET > SACRAMENTI EUCHARISTIAE LIBRI SEX. 467Kb > DE SACRO ALTARIS MYSTERIO. LIBRI SEX. 443Kb > LIBER QUARTUS 105Kb > CAPUT XVII. Quando fiat transsubstantiatio. 4Kb > ...sed quia neutrum potest existere sine reliquo. Est ergo sanguis > sub speciebus panis, non ex vi sacramenti, sed ex naturali > concomitantia,... > > I found several references to "in speciebus panis et vini" in > Rupert of Deutz. > > Alger of Liege used: > ex veris speciebus panis et vini. > Tom Izbicki > > > From: "Jaye Procure" <[log in to unmask]> > To: [log in to unmask] > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2014 3:11:59 PM > Subject: Re: [M-R] sub speciebus > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > Gary > > If it's not too much trouble, could you send me the useful articles > as well? Coming from the Catholic tradition, I agree with your > analysis. I suspect that looking into Martin Luther's works one > would find a preference for "in speciebus" but that is speculation > on my part. > > Thank you > > Jaye Procure > > > On 29 May 2014 12:46, Gary Macy <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > Dear Cate, > > My educated guess is that the twelfth and early thirteenth century > theologians used "in speciebus" and "sub speciebus" interchangably. > However with the a greater understanding of Aristotle's metaphysics, > they would have preferred "sub speciebus" since accidents (the > appearance of bread and wine) marilyn mccord adams point to and > adhere in a substance. In the case of the eucharistis presence, > however, the appearances of bread and wine point to but do not > adhere in the substance of the body and blood of Christ. So, the > body and blood are "under" and not "in" the substance present on the > altar. The endless discussions of how this is possible continue > throughout the Middle Ages and beyond. I recommend the articles by > myself and Stephen Lahey in A Companion to the Eucharist in the > Middle Ages (Brill, 2012) for a (hopefully) readable account of this > development. If you have trouble getting it, I can send scans of > those two articles. Offline, I will send a couple of useful > articles on the subject. > > I hope this helps, > Gary > > > On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 5:45 AM, Frank Morgret > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and > culture > On 29/05/2014 5:43 AM, Cate Gunn wrote: > Am I right in thinking that ‘sub specie/speciebus’ became the > orthodox terminology after 1215 - or did ‘in’ continue to be used? > And is this difference significant? > Many thanks for any help. > > Cate, > > I am not a middlevilist, but have spent the last 50 years seeking to > understand the early continental Reformation from 1517 to 1530. Of > course the answer to your question is pertinent to my studies. You > would do me a great favour by posting any replies not sent to the > list to the rest of us? I hope they will be fulsome. > > Many, many thanks! > > Frank Morgret > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR > NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, > address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, > send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write > to: [log in to unmask] For further > information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > > > > -- > Gary Macy > John Nobili, SJ Chair of Theology > Chair of Religious Studies Department > Director, Graduate Program in Pastoral Ministries > (408) 554 2357 > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR > NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, > address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, > send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write > to: [log in to unmask] For further > information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > > > > -- > Selfishness is not living as one wishes to live, it is asking others > to live as one wishes to live. > - Oscar Wilde > > Please check out my blog: > http://catholicanuck.blogspot.com > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR > NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, > address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, > send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write > to: [log in to unmask] For further > information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion > > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR > NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, > address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, > send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write > to: [log in to unmask] For further > information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion Cate [log in to unmask] ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: subscribe medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: unsubscribe medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/medieval-religion