Is there a way of filtering out FISH thesauri messages, as I'm beginning to get RSI in my index finger?
 
Stuart
 

Stuart Cakebread | Greater London Historic Environment Record Manager

Direct Line: 0207 973 3731

 

English Heritage | London Planning

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From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carlisle, Philip
Sent: 28 April 2014 10:55
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

Hi Crispin,
 
'Not Compulsory' is the relevant phrase here and your comments refer to issues associated with HBSMR.
 
This is a software issue. This is not a thesaurus issue. Nothing the Data Standards Unit has done goes against the international standard for thesaurus construction nor indeed is it detrimental to the use of the current thesauri as they stand.
In fact, as we are now making our thesauri available as linked data, we are increasingly mindful of the impact any changes have on their use, but similarly we cannot be constrained by software limitations.
 
As for HISTORIC AIRCRAFT TYPE, that has no place in this debate whatsoever.
 
Phil
 
 
 
 
 

Phil Carlisle

Data Standards Supervisor

Data Standards Unit, Designations Department

English Heritage

The Engine House

Fire Fly Avenue

Swindon

SN2 2EH

Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824

 

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/

 

http://www.heritagedata.org/blog/

 

 


From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crispin Flower
Sent: 28 April 2014 10:37
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

Hi Phil

I obviously didn’t explain clearly enough, but perhaps you should have called before this particular contribution and then you could have avoided flinging around words like “misleading and scaremongering”!  But I’m in meetings most of today so a very quick email explanation.

The reason people want the terms merged into MT, and are asking about progress on this, is so that they will no longer have to use 2 different thesauri for indexing monument types*. Once the terms have been merged into MT and a new thesaurus released, the HBSMR thesaurus upgrader will look after the rest, as described in my previous email. After the transition, the DoB thesaurus would no longer be used.  This is not compulsory – it’s a choice during the thesaurus upgrade process as you should know, and some HERs may choose to continue to use DoB, but as we understand it most will want to make this transition as the outcome is beneficial for indexing and searching.  And it is during this transition process that problems will arise, as previously described, if terms used for indexing become non-preferred or non-index.

Yours

Crispin.

 

*leaving aircraft types out of this debate for the time being.

 

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Carlisle, Philip
Sent: 28 April 2014 10:21
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

 

Crispin et al,

 

Sorry, but no.

 

What we are soing is adding the terms as non-preferred terms in TMT. We are not removing them or denegrating them in DoB. Therefore any record indexed with the DoB term will remain indexed with the DoB term.

 

An example of this is the DoB term SUBMARINE MINE ESTABLISHMENT.

 

This term alreadty exists as a Non-Preferred Term in TMT (albeit incorrectly spelt -now rectified with the inclusion of the 'h') for SUBMARINE MINE DEPOT.

 

In this example, any record in any version of HBSMR which has used this term will/should have

 

TMT: SUBMARINE MINE DEPOT

DoB: SUBMARINE MINE ESTABLISHMENT

 

Any HER officer who no longer wanted to use the DoB term can now remove it from their indexing at their leisure.

 

If we were change the status within a thesaurus then your comments would indeed be true Crispin. In this instance though they are completely false and in actual fact quite misleading and scaremongering.

 

Phil

 

Phil Carlisle

Data Standards Supervisor

Data Standards Unit, Designations Department

English Heritage

The Engine House

Fire Fly Avenue

Swindon

SN2 2EH

Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824

 

http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/

 

http://www.heritagedata.org/blog/

 

 

 


From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crispin Flower
Sent: 26 April 2014 17:50
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

Hi Paul (and anyone else who realises that thesaurus discussions are the very stuff of life, and certainly worthy of the 15th anniversary of this list;-)

Adding something that is currently a preferred index term in DoB as a non-preferred term in MT will cause issues.  To expand… once the merge is complete and you release a new thesaurus version, HERs will (we expect) use the HBSMR thesaurus upgrading mechanism to automatically re-code everything that currently uses DoB terms with MT terms. If a term that was previously preferred becomes non-preferred, the thesaurus upgrade process realises that it is not permitted to re-code records onto the n-p MT term, and the fall-back mechanism is to re-introduce the term as a candidate into the new thesaurus. This allows the records to continue to display and query OK, but it leaves things in a situation that is far from ideal, as it is not a real candidate, has no position in the hierarchy, and this is all quite time-consuming to clean up manually.

So, it would be much better if anything that was a preferred index term in DoB could remain so in MT. You said this “may not be possible” – can we share/discuss the reasons?  If there really have to be such cases, it may be best to release a list of these up front, allowing HERs to re-code affected records in advance, which leads to a cleaner migration.

There is no issue around what happens to non-preferred and non-index terms, as they will not have been used to index data in HBSMR.

Maybe we should take this off list!?

atb

C

 

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adams, Paul
Sent: 25 April 2014 11:43
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

 

Hi Crispin et al,

 

As far as is possible we will attempt to add the outstanding DoB preferred terms to MT as preferred terms, however this may not be possible for all of the terms so some may need to be added as non preferred terms. At the moment I can't give any specific examples without thoroughly examining the outstanding DoB terms and how they might map to MT - the list you kindly supplied consists of preferred, non preferred and non index terms.

If we have to add a preferred DoB term to MT as non preferred term this shouldn't be too much of an issue because even though we will be 'retiring' DoB, meaning that we will no longer be adding candidate terms to it, we will still supply it to all who want to use it. We'll get back to you as soon as we are finished.

All the best

 

Paul

 

Paul Adams

Data Standards Supervisor, Data Standards Unit

Designation Department

English Heritage

The Engine House

Fire Fly Avenue, Swindon. SN2 2EH

T: 01793 414762

 

 


From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Crispin Flower
Sent: 24 April 2014 22:24
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

When it has been completed, we will need to do a very thorough test of this merged thesaurus colliding with the HBSMR thesaurus upgrade mechanism, before anyone proceeds with this on a live HER dataset. In theory this should allow a seamless transition, re-coding all your records automatically, but that depends on a number of things being just so… and specifically it will require all of the preferred index terms from DoB to be present as preferred index terms in MT with precisely the same term text, as that is the only way they can be matched (presuming the MT terms/concepts will have new identifiers) – if any of that is not the case Paul, please let us know.

Looking forward to it, sort of!

Crispin

 

 

From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adams, Paul
Sent: 24 April 2014 11:32
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

 

Hi Andrew,

 

We're still working on it and will report back when complete, however it may take us some time to integrate the remaining terms.

All the best

 

Paul

 

Paul Adams

Data Standards Supervisor, Data Standards Unit

Designation Department

English Heritage

The Engine House

Fire Fly Avenue, Swindon. SN2 2EH

T: 01793 414762

 

 


From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nicholson, Andrew
Sent: 24 April 2014 11:29
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

Was just checking back through the list, and couldn’t see a notification that the DoB integration was completed yet. Have I missed it or are we still waiting on it Paul?

 

 

Andrew Nicholson

Historic Environment Record Officer

Dumfries and Galloway Council
Planning and Environment (Archaeology)
Militia House, English Street

Dumfries, DG1 2HR

Tel: (pending) (int. 60186) | Fax: 01387 260111
+ <mailto:[log in to unmask]>
.Drop Point 207

 

http://www.historicchurchyards.co.uk/ - a new resource on historic graveyards in Dumfries and Galloway

http://www.futuremuseum.co.uk/collections/people/lives-in-key-periods/archaeology.aspx - newly launched website showcasing the best finds from the region


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From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adams, Paul
Sent: 07 February 2014 11:18
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: FISH thesauri v15

 

Thanks Crispin, we'll get on it and will notify the list when complete.

 

Paul

 


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