I agree. Whilst there is every reason for the CofE to seek to develop some property management system across the board, rather than diocese by diocese, there is no justification for duplicating the effort in terms of historic environment data.
What is need is for DAC advisors to be adequately trained, where appropriate (I doubt that you or Quinton need any training in this regard).
Chris
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bryant, Victoria (BEC, Archive and Archaeology)
Sent: 07 January 2014 17:17
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Church of England Historic Environment Record
Dear Chris
This is a real problem but I'm not sure the best way to sort it is to make a new record. Could English Heritage work with CofE on a national level to try to address this issue? Would cost a lot less than setting up and maintaining a new database??
Best wishes
Victoria
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle
Sent: 07 January 2014 08:41
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Church of England Historic Environment Record
Hi Victoria,
I fear the problem in this case lies in those many dioceses where the DAC archaeological advisor has little or no link with the LA archaeological advisor.
I have only met our local DAC advisor on one occasion, and am hard pressed to think who he is. He for his part has never has sought information from the City HER.
I recently spoke to someone in an East Midland county where the diocese advisor was unaware that the otherwise post med. church sat on the site of a med church; a fact recorded in the HER. In these and similar cases is the diocese archaeological advisor even aware of the local HER and the desirability of consulting it?
Chris
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Bryant, Victoria (BEC, Archive and Archaeology)
Sent: 06 January 2014 16:47
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Church of England Historic Environment Record
As DAC archaeological advisor for the Diocese of Worcester I am concerned about the duplication of effort and possible confusion arising from creating an HER type database for churches.
I do promote the concept of the HER and have found that the DAC , churchwardens, architects and surveyors understand and generally engage with the HERs to our mutual benefit. As the HER for Worcestershire is part of the Archive and Archaeology Service we have easy access to quinquennial and NADFAS reports and parish archives but others do not have such close connections which makes me think that there are quite enough different collections of information without creating any more.
Any other DAC members out there with a view on this?
Victoria
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From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Ben Wallace
Sent: 06 January 2014 11:40
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Church of England Historic Environment Record
I suppose another way of looking at it is are HERs currently consulted by C of E for consultations/work that don't require planning permission and may or may not need faculty approval? If not does this proposal fill a gap in that HER data will then be used or should another method be found to improve HER data being used by the C of E?
I think it is good that the C of E have identified that they have an issue in terms of dealing with Historic Environment data but perhaps the solution is not ideal?
Just opening up the discussion.... :)
Ben
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(Historic Environment Record Manager)
BA (EU) Hons, MA, MIfA
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On 6 January 2014 11:25, Vince Russett <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Good morning, chums
This does seem a rather difficult idea, fraught with opportunities for confusion. The National Trust HER is a similar case. The problem is that individual sites end up having multiple labels (EH data label, local HER label, NT label and now potentially CofE data label, to say nothing of the extra numbers contractors and/or academics use). I seem to spend an awful lot of time doing comparisons to see if contractors and myself are talking about the same sites.
Vince
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County Archaeologist
Development Management Group
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From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Ben Wallace
Sent: 06 January 2014 10:40
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Church of England Historic Environment Record
Happy New Year to all.
Quinton has been the main point of contact for this in terms of ALGAO and we did look at this briefly at the last ALGAO England Exec meeting in November, however, we ran out of time to discuss it in any depth. The feeling from the Exec Committee was for the ALGAO HER Committee to look at this further and we plan to have it on the agenda for our meeting at the end of the month.
Looking at this myself I agree with Chris in that it appears to be more of a data management tool for the C of E that they have called an HER but it does not fulfil the criteria of what we may all understand as an HER. There are some reasonable suggestions and practices in the documents but a number of issues that they should probably address as well.
Somewhere along the line there seems to be a move to make it more like an HER especially with some of the questions they are asking in a consultation sent to various partners, such as whether they should be on Heritage Gateway, whether they should use HBSMR or a bespoke system, how to relate/function with Local Authority HERs etc. I will see if I can circulate the questions to the forum and to the ALGAO HER Committee.
I am happy to take any comments from forum members on the proposal to the next ALGAO HER Committee meeting so that we can discuss it further.
Regards,
Ben
Ben Wallace
(Historic Environment Record Manager)
BA (EU) Hons, MA, MIfA
Warwickshire Historic Environment Record
Archaeological Information and Advice (AIA)
Archives and Historic Environment,
Heritage and Culture Warwickshire,
Localities and Community Safety,
Communities
Warwickshire County Council
Phone: 01926 412734
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Physical Address: Archaeological Information and Advice, Communities, Warwickshire County Council, Barrack Street, Warwick CV34 4TH
e-mail: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
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On 6 January 2014 09:30, Thomas, Roger J C <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Dear Pete,
My immediate thought on reading the proposal is that there are other Church of England buildings that may be of note - mission/memorial/church halls, clergy houses, and vicarages, should not these structures be addressed as part of a CofEHER remit?
Regards,
Roger
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Peter Insole
Sent: 02 January 2014 11:55
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Church of England Historic Environment Record
The PD and proposed data structure is attached (hopefully).
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Miles Johnson
Sent: 02 January 2014 11:51
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Church of England Historic Environment Record
Hello,
Thanks for raising that.
That's the first we'd heard of it - are the project details/p.d. online somewhere..?
Happy New Year,
Miles
-----Original Message-----
From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>] On Behalf Of Pete Insole
Sent: 02 January 2014 11:42
To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Church of England Historic Environment Record
Hello and a Happy New Year
Has anyone/did anyone commented on this project? I see that Quinton in Cambs is advising the project team.
I've only just seen the project design for this pilot project, but it proposes to create a national CofE HER with links to LA HERs with funding from EH.
I'd be interested in people's comments, but having briefly gone through the PD I can see lots of references to systems development, but not a lot on data management nor any mention of MIDAS compliance.
Data sharing between HERs and Diocese records would be nice.
Thought?
Best wishes,
Pete
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