There are 3 messages totaling 916 lines in this issue.
Topics of the day:
1. Can non-europeans think (link)
2. De-Lurk.
3. FW: Witchcraft and Magic conference in Finland
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Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 22:13:56 -0500
From: Erica Obey <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: Can non-europeans think (link)
Just a lurker here, but for what my 2 cents are worth, I honestly won't miss
them.
All best,
Erica
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of David Green
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2013 4:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Can non-europeans think (link)
Too little to late alas. Deletion is a last resort, but their unproductive
locking of horns - plus NW's offlist abuse - has just happened too many
times to be tolerated any longer. Their recent spats have caused the list to
haemorrhage subscribers and that could not go unchecked.
Dr Dave Green
Senior Lecturer in Sociology, University of the West of England, Bristol, UK
Society for the Academic Study of Magic (SASM):
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC
Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=653230719>
https://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=653230719
_____
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of OLUWATOYIN ADEPOJU
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 27 January 2013 19:56
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Can non-europeans think (link)
David,
Why dont you make this a last warning?
I would miss Azal's advocacy of Islamic learning and Segal's championing of
the Western model of learning as he understands it, if I could sum up my
understanding of their contributions quickly.
I would also suggest that such squabbles should be tolerated as long as they
dont degenerate to outright insults. Others can call the participants to
order but the natural character of human interaction, which is not always at
a high level, should be allowed to take its course.
toyin
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 4:44 PM, David Green <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
Dear NW and Robert,
Whilst you might be lovely people off-list, but I am utterly sick of your
pompous, point-scoring public squabbles and the effect it has on this list.
You might both have a list of credentials and qualifications as long as the
human genome (almost as long as my patience), but you both really need to
grow up and 'grow a pair'. Consider yourself deleted.
Best Wishes,
Dave
Dr Dave Green
Senior Lecturer in Sociology, University of the West of England, Bristol, UK
Society for the Academic Study of Magic (SASM):
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?A0=ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC
Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=653230719>
https://www.facebook.com/#!/profile.php?id=653230719
_____
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of N.W. Azal
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: 26 January 2013 15:57
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Can non-europeans think (link)
And I suppose the published literature in the West on the subject of Islamic
magic going back to the 19th century (cited here in the past) -- and one
most recently by Noah Gardiner who is on this list, and an outstanding piece
too (his concluding remarks are most apropos here) -- is stale pc in your
perspective.
Dr. Siegal, you do not know what you are talking about outside of your own
narrow field as well as your specific, circumscribed cultural lens. A real
scholar, not to mention a real gentleman, would have no problems conceding
this. You, on the other hand, appear to have a chip on your shoulder
whenever people have pointed out the blatantly obvious.
There is no blame in the fact that you don't know about a certain subject
area. No one can be infallible. But you react viscerally to the fact that
there can be something outside of your specific field of discussion
regarding a subject matter such as magic -- and this is a problem which is
institutional and very pervasive, and which you echo.
Goodbye to you too.
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Segal, Professor Robert A.
<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
My final comment for sure:
You read everything as racist. I was asking, as I would of anyone who
claims that some pet figure was ignored in a book or article, just what was
being missed. This response happens repeatedly and has nothing to do with
race or geography. Of course, no book or article is exhaustive, and
reviewers and referees often point out what might have been included. I do
this myself. But what the distinctive POSITION that the excluded figure
holds is the real issue. I cannot put this point any more clearly, and I
am sorry that you have yet to grasp it.
The associates of yours who tell you that my work is unimpressive hold what
endowed professorships in what top universities. And you yourself? Why
not tell us all exactly what book or article I have written that fails to
meet your standards and exactly why not? I await your professional
assessment.
In any other discussion list with which I am familiar, ad hominem invective
like yours would not be posted.
I have in fact been exceedingly restrained, but I am not intimidated by
stale, embittered, unproven attacks on anyone who refuses to accept some p c
position that has long ceased to be trendy. I deal in arguments and
evidence.
Goodbye.
Robert Segal
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of N.W. Azal
[[log in to unmask]]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 3:30 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Can non-europeans think (link)
I have checked your cv. You don't impress me at all. And given your history
of acerbic, caustic responses to people whenever they questioned you on
important matters, you are not a man of honor to debate anything with; nor
as far as I know are you taken all that seriously by scholars who are
actually working in the field whom I know -- despite what you may believe
about yourself otherwise.
As for your accusation about racism: given your documented ethnocentric and
Islamophobic statements made on this list to me and others, take a look in
the mirror. This pompous and ignorant statement also demonstrates the issue
quite well and merely reinforces what I said in general previously, "...tell
us just what was novel in any of the non-Western writers on magic you were
touting..."
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Segal, Professor Robert A.
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> wrote:
Check my cv. I don't answer to you.
At the same time you continually misread things. I didn't claim expertise
on my part but on the part of the editors of DEFINING MAGIC. But then the
publisher asked me for an endorsement, so that I guess that I am seen by
some as having some expertise.
You were asked by me weeks ago to tell us just what was novel in any of the
non-Western writers on magic you were touting. Still working on that
information? Your statements that non-Westerners were shamefully being
overlooked was your sole argument--an ad hominem argument, and one
ultimately racist itself, that carries no weight among scholars. So I
replied more than once to you.
I have no interest in any more exchanges with you.
RS
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
.UK>] On Behalf Of N.W. Azal
[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 1:13 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask].
UK>
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Can non-europeans think (link)
But debating on the basis of knowledge is, to use a rather out-of-date line,
what separates the men from the boys.
Indeed. But could I ask what you have actually written about magic on any
serious level which places you among the men and not the boys?
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 1:26 PM, Segal, Professor Robert A.
<[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><[log in to unmask]">mailto:[log in to unmask]<mai
lto:[log in to unmask]>>> wrote:
Jan. 26
Dear Mogg,
The Presocratics versus Homeric gods? Plato versus Homeric gods? The
Stoics saving Homeric gods only through allegory?
I appreciate your prior message, which was most cordial.
I love debating. That is being scholarly, not unscholarly. But debating
on the basis of knowledge is, to use a rather out-of-date line, what
separates the men from the boys.
Best,
Robert
________________________________________
From: Society for The Academic Study of Magic
[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]
.UK><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC@
JISCMAIL.AC.UK>>] On Behalf Of mandrake
[[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]><mailto:mandrake@M
ANDRAKE.UK.NET<mailto:[log in to unmask]>>]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 12:18 PM
To:
[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask].
UK><mailto:[log in to unmask]<mailto:ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC@J
ISCMAIL.AC.UK>>
Subject: Re: [ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC] Can non-europeans think (link)
Dear Friends
It is not unscholarly to debate and ask questions.
Although in your latest one too many for me - although
one caught my eye -
the conflict "religion versus science":
There is no conflict between pagan religion and science
but there was a conflict in Europe between Christian religion and
(pagan?) science ?
(I note that some openly Christian astronomers and historians of science
have been trying to argue the opposite)
senebty
Mogg Morgan
Jan. 26
Dear Nick,
Many thanks for your fast reply.
Obviously, I agree with you.
I know well Christian polemics against Greco-Roman pagans and vice versa.
I wonder what our experts, whose academic credentials are obscure, think of
Justin Martyr, who was beheaded by Rome for his polemics against pagan
philosophers.
It does not take a specialist to be aware of divisions within the
"European" realm. Since, as you note, "Abrahamic" includes Islam, what do
our authorities make of the Crusades? An intra-mural squabble? What do
they make of religious persecutions throughout the history of "Europe"?
What of the conflict between religion and science? What of philosophical
conflicts--for example, between materialism and idealism?
Yes, the list could be most useful if it were scholarly. I especially
like the publicizing of publications and of conferences that might otherwise
pass me by. And subscribers who ask for references or other guides--this
is what the list should be doing.
Best,
The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
The University of Aberdeen is a charity registered in Scotland, No SC013683.
--
Compcros <http://danteadinkra.wix.com/compcros>
Comparative Cognitive Processes and Systems
"Exploring Every Corner of the Cosmos in Search of Knowledge"
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:47:23 +0000
From: Alexandra Jacqueline Annala <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: De-Lurk.
This is such a marvelous list. I look forward to participating in these discussions.
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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2013 12:53:02 +0000
From: Alexandra Jacqueline Annala <[log in to unmask]>
Subject: Re: FW: Witchcraft and Magic conference in Finland
What a marvelous concept for a conference. This takes place in a country that what I departed was almost entirely Lutheran because the society was almost entirely homogenous and the national church of the country was lutheran.
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End of ACADEMIC-STUDY-MAGIC Digest - 27 Jan 2013 to 28 Jan 2013 (#2013-21)
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