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To continue this thread just a little, timber blockhouses/guard towers were built to guard a number of the purpose built Napoleonic PoW camps, so I don't think that it would be too much to expect that some form of temporary timber guardhouses were also built at 'holding points or transit camps' on a regular route to and from disembarkation ports. Incidentally, elements of the 2nd Free Legion (Legion Noire) were held temporarily in farm buildings within a walled enclosure at Pembroke subsequent to their capture after the abortive French raid on Fishguard in 1797. Regards, Roger J C Thomas Military Support Officer - English Heritage ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Lara Band Sent: 28 January 2012 14:37 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Hello, Hansard debates might be interesting to look at, if there was any contemporary discussion on building a system of guardhouses - though it is only from 1803 onwards http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/ Doing a quick search I found the following - using the search terms: French prisoners and French prisoners barracks finds, for example, NAVY ESTIMATES. ADMIRALTY COURT HC Deb 22 March 1811 vol 19 cc476-93 Mr. Wharton replied, that the whole sum necessary for those particular barracks would be 131,000l. Among the other items there were 12,000l. for the erection of depots for the French prisoners/of whom there were a great increase. and HC Deb 14 June 1811 vol 20 cc634-9 An Account of the number of French Prisoners of War in England being presented to the House Mr. Rose took occasion to observe, that it would appear from these documents that the total number of French Prisoners remaining in England amounted to 45,933, and that the returns of the sick were 321. The number on parole were 2,710, and the sick 165. Debates later in the century reference buildings for the housing of French prisoners (though of course, might already reflecting local myth) e.g.: QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. HL Deb 26 July 1885 vol 300 cc212-3 THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN said, he rose to ask a Question of the noble Viscount the Under Secretary for War about the military prison of Glencorse, the condition of which he ventured two years ago to bring to the attention of their Lordships. This prison was built about 100 years ago for the reception of French prisoners taken during the war with France, and was constructed entirely of wood, except the stone staircase in the centre which connected the two wings, and the wood was tarred over. It was nothing more nor less than a fire trap. or QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS. HL Deb 12 December 1893 vol 19 cc1151-6 EARL WEMYSS said [...] In Ireland, the same thing was to be seen at Cork, where there were some wooden buildings erected for the reception of French prisoners during the Napoleonic wars, and certainly about 80 years old. Barrack accommodation being required, those buildings were tested and found to be perfectly sound; they were tarred over and built on a stone or brick foundation. The sergeants and their families who lodge there were delighted with them, while those in the stone huts were complaining and wanted to go into the wooden ones. It might be that there was some debate on setting French prisoners to work, or conscripting them. Apologies if Hansard is a well known source anyway, I discovered it during some research on workhouses and love it. It's a great resource on many levels, I could wander round in there for hours..... Best Regards Lara Band My first post here so perhaps should introduce myself: recent MA Historical Archaeology (DL) graduate from the University of Leicester; field archaeologist but currently working for Ålands Maritime Museum. On 27/01/2012 15:55, CARLISLE, Philip wrote: Hi Chris See http://www.1812privateers.org/crimmin.pdf Phil Phil Carlisle Data Standards Supervisor Data Standards Unit, Designations Department English Heritage The Engine House Fire Fly Avenue Swindon SN2 2EH Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824 http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/ The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent. Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author. P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle Sent: 27 January 2012 13:18 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Hi Phil, These numbers sound a bit like those given in some sources for the numbers of Persian troops who fought against Alexander the Great at Gaugamela. Chris -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Philip CARLISLE Sent: 27 January 2012 11:56 To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Dear all, Considering that between 100,000 and 250,000 French prisoners of war from the Napoleonic Wars were held in Britain during the period (depending on which source you read) I'd think it was highly likely that at least some were put to work on building projects (other than their own prisons). Phil Phil Carlisle Data Standards Supervisor Data Standards Unit, Designations Department English Heritage The Engine House Fire Fly Avenue Swindon SN2 2EH Tel: +44 (0)1793 414824 http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/ The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent. Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author. P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Wardle Sent: 27 January 2012 11:25 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Hugh, Call me an old cynic if you must, but as a well-known historian once commented, "Most people, in fact, will not take the trouble in finding out the truth, but are much more inclined to accept the first story they hear." Whilst you can't rule out all tales of French prisoners being used for this kind of engineering project, just how many French prisoners did Britain take in the 1790s and early part of the C18th? Britain was not an major land power. For most of the wars with France, the main sources of French prisoners would have been:- a. Those captured in clearing-up operations on land in the West Indies, Egypt and a handful of other places beyond Europe. I doubt whether there would have been too many of these. b. Captured sailors. Bearing in mind the Royal Navy's chronic shortage of seamen, I suspect that the navy would have tried to use as many of these as possible on British ships. c. From the Spanish peninsular after 1809. Could these sources really have been sufficient to carry out all the engineering works attributed to them and to fill the cells in Dartmoor? Chris -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Hugh Winfield Sent: 27 January 2012 09:33 To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Chris, Surely being post-boom it would make it more likely? I would have thought that engineers desperate to finish off abandoned or over-budget projects would have moved heaven and high water to get their hands on large labour pools that they didn't have to pay! Just a thought, no evidence obviously. Hugh Hugh Winfield Archaeologist and Historic Environment Record Officer Development Management Origin One, Origin Way Europarc, Grimsby North East Lincolnshire DN37 9TZ Tel: (01472) 32 3586 Fax: (01472) 32 4216 Access maps of the Archaeological and Historic sites, buildings and monuments in North East Lincolnshire here: http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelcaspx <https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx><https://legacy.nelincs.gov.uk/exchweb/bin/redir.asp?URL=http://isharemaps.nelincs.gov.uk/mynelc.aspx> ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records on behalf of Chris Wardle Sent: Fri 27/01/2012 09:28 To: Winfield, Hugh Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Hi Vince, I seem to dimly recall, from my days of 'A' level history, that the main era of 'Canal Mania', when investor were eager to put money into making rivers navigable and building canals lasted from the early 1770s into the late 1780s. By the time the French Revolutionary Wars broke out in the 1790s the enthusiasm for canal building was cooling off. Many venues, such as the ill-fated Charnwood Forest Canal here in Leicestershire, having proven to be huge loss makers. So it seems likely that most of the stories of the involvement of French prisoners of war in improvements in navigation are probably untrue. Chris Wardle City Archaeologist Planning & Economic Development A11, New Walk Centre Leicester. LE1 6ZG -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Vince Russett Sent: 27 January 2012 09:11 To: Issues related to Historic Environment Records; Chris Wardle Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Morning, chums! And while we're on this subject, I've often heard stories of major engineering works (river course modification etc) being carried out by Napoleonic prisoners of war - specifically, the story is told of straightening of the Cheddar Yeo by such. Does anyone know if there is any truth in these stories? Vince Vince Russett County Archaeologist Development Management Group North Somerset Council Our Historic Environment Record is now on-line: Go to the North Somerset web site (http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk <http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/><http://www.n-somerset.gov.uk/> ) then use the tabs Environment / Conservation / Archaeology/ Historic Environment Record. Enjoy! Landline: 01934 426456 Mobile: 07919 265644 Please note my work hours are usually 8am to 4pm -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Boldrini Sent: 27 January 2012 08:56 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: Friday (early) morning question Hi Chris I assume you've picked the Civic Trusts collective brain to see where they got the info? not heard of anything similar up here best wishes Nick Boldrini Historic Environment Record Officer Durham County Council Tel: 0191 3708840 Fax: 0191 3708897 [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> VPN 7777 8840 -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Chris Webster Sent: 27 January 2012 08:34 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Friday (early) morning question In a street in Wells, called Guard House Lane, is a plaque erected by the civic society that reads: Guardhouse Lane takes its name from its eighteenth-century guardhouse - the tall building 50 metres down on the right-hand side. The Napoleonic Wars of the late 1790s and early 1800s saw a new warfare of mass armies and large fleets. This made necessary the first serious attempt to house prisoners-of-war in specially built prisons or prison camps, as on Dartmoor or at Norman Cross near Peterborough. Captured French soldiers and sailors were landed at Dorset ports, and marched about 20 miles a day, lodging en route at specially constructed staging-posts. Wells Guardhouse was the last overnight stop for other ranks before reaching the newly enlarged Stapleton Prison at Bristol. Has anyone else come across these - it suggests a semi-national system - but I can find no other information about it/them. Chris Webster Historic Environment Record Somerset County Council Somerset Heritage Centre Brunel Way Taunton TA2 6SF 01823 347434 Online HER: www.somerset.gov.uk/her<http://www.somerset.gov.uk/her> This communication is intended solely for the person (s) or organisation to whom it is addressed. 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