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Anne, Hear! Hear! I am not currently in the same situation as the other contributers however, we OHNs are IMHO opinion as little understood by our 'nursing family' as we are by some of the clients/managers that we serve (and they have a good excuse). Kate ________________________________ From: Anne Harriss <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Thursday, 23 June, 2011 20:27:42 Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Insurance/indemnity cover Dear Jane I would suggest contacting Chris Cox at the RCN. If every OHN who has this Q does it then they will realise the importance of this issue. In my view the RCN should give OHNs the same level of service and cover that any nurse would get. Sorry to sound like I am a whinger but It all goes to prove to me that OHNs are a misunderstood specialty within the family of nursing and we are pegs being consistently hammered into holes of the wrong shape. Anne On Jun 23 2011, JANE COOMBS wrote: Opened cans - worms - everywhere I look! Thanks everyone. I think I will chose another insurance provider. Jane Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 22:12:41 +0100 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Insurance/indemnity cover To: [log in to unmask] Hi It would seem that we have had several different answers from the RCN to the question posed....When I questioned cover as a sole practitioner who subcontracts to other providers, I too was advised that provided I worked within my sphere of competance "as a nurse in nursing activity" I was covered for that activity, when I asked about my role in OH advising on aspects such as ergonomic issues which may be carried out by a person other than a nurse (DSE etc)...I was advised that provided I had been trained/was suitably qualified to give that advice and it was part of my role as an OH practitioner that would be covered too. I know that it is recommended that when I am covering a contract, the company I go on behalf of, has to have insurance for my work too. Maybe a subscriber from the list is in a position within the RCN to ask their legal team to clarify this on list rather than be inundated by letters/emails from us. Liz- Maybe a way round the OHP insurance is for the business you are looking after to "refer" to an OHP themselves...on your recommendation of course- you will know if the OHP has the required qualifications where a HR officer or manager doesnt. Then let them deal with the payment to the OHP...that way your company is not engaging the service of the OHP your client is and the OHP will have their own insurance. Any OHP report could then be filed in OH notes. Jacqui From: liz terry To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wednesday, 22 June 2011, 21:20 Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Insurance/indemnity cover . Hi All I spoke to them about this last year and after being speaking to several RCN advisors they told me I was only covered if I did not engage with any non RCN members. This is obviously a problem when we refer to others such as OHP etc. Have a look at the email below: (yes I am sad and keep all my emails). Hope it helps! Liz Where a member is working in a self employed capacity, whether trading as a sole proprietor or behind a limited company, and does not employ other health care staff, the member will be covered by the scheme. Where a member is working in a self employed capacity, whether as a sole proprietor or behind a limited company and employs (under a contract of employment) another health care worker or engages with an independent contractor and they are not members of the RCN, the member will be excluded from the scheme. If, however, in addition to working in their business, a member undertakes work outside of the business, such as on the bank or through an agency, then he/she remains covered by the scheme. NOTE Member must still meet the RCN indemnity insurance criteria of: Ensuring that they have undertaken a period of training that ensures they are fully competent to practise. That they follow the principles of the NMC Code of Professional conduct: standards for conduct, performance and ethics. Ensure that they work within current policies and protocols. That they are in a category of membership that provides indemnity cover. How does the legal department explain the rationale behind 'engages'? where a self-employed member either employs or 'engages' with another health care worker to deliver a service, and the latter is not an RCN member, the scheme does not apply to the self-employed member. The only way round this particular problem is for the medic to contract personally with the member's client to deliver the medic's training. The rationale is as follows: if the self-employed member contracts with the client in the member's (her company) name, then in the event of a negligence claim arising from staff supplied by the member (i.e. the medic), it is likely that the client will sue the member. After all, it is the member with whom the client has the contract. The client isn't generally concerned about the employment relationship between the member and the medic. Although the member can in those circumstances seek an indemnity from the medic, through the latter's own insurers, legal costs will be incurred in the process. The RCN takes the view that whilst it will cover members, it is not appropriate to cover costs the self-employed member may incur in seeking indemnities from staff employed or engaged by the member. After all, the indemnity scheme is a benefit for the individual member. From: [log in to unmask] [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Wendy Stimson Sent: 22 June 2011 20:54 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Insurance/indemnity cover Hi Pippa you are correct, I had it confirmed in writing by the RCN to be sure. Jane I can dig it out probably? Wendy Wendy Sent from my iPod On 22 Jun 2011, at 17:37, Pippa Stanford wrote: Jane - I wrote down the date and precise points of the telephone conversation I had with the RCN advisor. I have no reason to think that the position has changed but do keep me posted. It must have been a ghastly moment. Pippa Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device From: JANE COOMBS Sender: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:31:26 +0000 To: ReplyTo: Occupational Health mailing list Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Insurance/indemnity cover Pippa You are saying exactly what I think - no not from the RCN but in an open learning forum with some very high powered OH practitioners who did not challenge this! Me? I was having a quiet heart attack.....! Just to be on the safe side I am going to recheck with the RCN because the individual who talked about this was very convincing and had a strong argument - but I am feeling a bit better now. Jane Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:25:06 +0000 From: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [OCC-HEALTH] Insurance/indemnity cover To: [log in to unmask] Hi Jane That's very strange. I checked this some time ago and the RCN advised me that I was covered as a sole proprietor as long as not employing others who are not RCN members. They told me that I should not need to get separate cover and this in fact may lead to dispute in the event of a claim. They specifically said that it covers the additional Occ Health component. In conclusion I was advised that I had sufficient cover via the RCN as long as I work within my own competence in line with NMC Code of Conduct and RCN guidelines. Did the RCN advise you that you were not covered? Pippa Stanford Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device From: JANE COOMBS Sender: [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:11:31 +0000 To: ReplyTo: Occupational Health mailing list Subject: [OCC-HEALTH] Insurance/indemnity cover Hi All I had a shock on Monday when I was told that the RCN insurance I pay monthly does not actually indemnify me if I was to work as a self employed OHA. I thought it was..... Also that sole practitioners require public liability insurance (which I do understand) Any thoughts on this? Jane ******************************** Please remove this footer before replying. OCC-HEALTH ARCHIVES: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/occ-health.html CONFERENCES AND STUDY DAYS: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/filearea.cgi?LMGT1=OCC-HEALTH ******************************** Please remove this footer before replying. 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