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–çFò&VÂ6ö6–WG’—Bw2æ÷Bvö–æro work. If I perform the thought experiment of what the impact of this would be, then it feels like it would act as a powerful disincentive to get married or incentive to get divorced (the Daily Mail would get worked up about Sheryl and Ashley's "sham divorce"). That way, they could continue to have two salaries. As usual, this would have no effect on the really rich. "We have two houses - I live in one and the mother of my children lives in another. We're very good friends and we spend most days together in the same house with the kids". So I would expect that the "trickle-down" impact on poor people who find it hard to get work would be quite small. I also expect that in a society where women tend to earn less than men, the impact would be to drive women disproportionately out of the workforce and into the home, as they protect the couple's larger salary at the expense of the smaller. Right, must do some work Dom From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Judith Bunting Sent: 16 May 2011 18:40 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] David Willetts MP on women in science/communication Apologies for the late reply (been working), but wanted to say thanks, Jenny, for taking my comments seriously and bothering to post information and sources. All really useful. Have another associated question to ask (a red rag to wave?) ... Would there be any argument acceptable for saying one household, one wage (salary)? Is there a political party, either here or in Europe, that has such a move in it's manifesto/list of desires? Do wonder if whether this is the only move that might spread life's benefits around more fairly. Would be hard for currently double-income families, I'm sure, but would it be harder than no-income families find things at the moment? Are there any benefits to be had from such a move outside the more even distribution of income across the country? Any hidden dangers. Given the support Scandinavian countries offer homekeepers, have they achieved something like this already? What can the social scientists out there tell me? Judith From: jennifer gristock <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Friday, 13 May 2011, 9:07 Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] David Willetts MP on women in science/communication I disagree. It might sound like 'common sense', but this is much more than a numbers game. For a start, if it were just a 'numbers game' and nothing could be done about 'problem' of women in the workforce, then we'd expect to see feminism's so-called negative impact on social mobility in other countries too. After all, the UK is not the only place where women have jobs. However, if you look at the data around Europe, you find that the opposite is true. Where equality is greater, so is social mobility. http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-staggers/2011/04/social-mobility-highest-levels So, Willetts blames feminism for the lack of opportunities open to working class men. Strangely, this does not fit the evidence of the Scandinavian countries. So, lets forget common sense and look at the evidence. What data have been published? Gallie (2000), Goldthorpe and Jackson (2007) and Breen (2010) all argue that it is not simply the number of jobs that matters, but 'changes that have led to the growth of some occupations and classes, and even the decline or demise of others' (Breen 2010). At the end of the 20th century, the occupational structure of the workforce changed a great deal. The proportion of clerical, mangerial and service jobs expanded at the expense of manual labour. Previously, data had shown the sons of unskilled manual workers moving up inter-generationally through getting a trade (Breen 2010) but thanks largely as a consequence of late twentieth century de-industrialisation there are now fewer opportunities to do this (Gallie 2000). I wouldnt argue that the decline of manufacturing is the only factor. Since the post-industrial transition is being felt in many European countries, other factors must be operating too. It seems to me that missing from these analyses is a consideration of the equality policies that support women as mothers in Scandinavia: it may be that these have an influence. But quotes like 'feminism has trumped egalitarianism' totally fail to acknowledge the influence of Industrial structures on social mobility, not to mention the empirical data that has been published on the subject. It also ignores the ability - indeed, some might say, the responsibility - of Governments to respond to social change particularly when that social change is necessary and just. The Scandinavian Governments appear to have done this. Our Governments didn't. Using women as a scapegoat is politically convenient, because it distracts attention away from the other factors that have been identified as strong influencers of social mobility: education, changes in occupational structures and Government policies as responses to social change. Blaming feminism is also abhorrent because it is a slap in the face to the 2 million women in the UK that are lone parents. Willetts assumes that if women hadn't 'taken' jobs from working class men, we would be housewives. Housewives to whom, exactly? Jenny Gristock On 12 May 2011, at 17:40, [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> wrote: Come on, guys, can we stop with the knee jerk reactions. His comments, as quoted at least, are not judgemental. It's a numbers game. If you double the available workforce, you'd expect to see a change in who's left unemployed. I'd not thought about assortive mating, before. Sounds likely to be true (anecdotal evidence surrounds us all), but does anyone know of ay studies that confiirm or deny? And before ayone asks, no I'm not a Tory. Judith -----Original Message----- From: Kat Arney Sent: 12/05/2011, 17:01 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] David Willetts MP on women in science/communication I can’t go, I’m too busy stealing jobs from men. K From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Laura Nelson Sent: 12 May 2011 16:36 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] David Willetts MP on women in science/communication Are women even allowed in? They might even dare to express an opinion! ________________________________ From: "Gallagher, Laura C" <[log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]>> To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Sent: Thursday, 12 May 2011, 15:59 Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] David Willetts MP on women in science/communication Yes - feminists have created the biggest barrier against good science writing. Women, know your place ;-) Laura Gallagher Research Media Relations Manager Communications and Development Division Imperial College London email: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Tel: +44(0)20 7594 8432 Out of hours duty press officer: +44(0)7803 886 248 iTunes U: Tune in and find out: www.imperial.ac.uk/itunesu<http://www.imperial.ac.uk/itunesu> From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of jennifer gristock Sent: 12 May 2011 14:29 To: [log in to unmask]<mailto:[log in to unmask]> Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] David Willetts MP on women in science/communication Interesting, given recent events: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/01/david-willetts-feminism-lack-of-jobs On 12 May 2011, at 13:22, Nava, Luke wrote: Hi all, Apologies for the cross posting. David Willetts MP will be speaking at a City University London and Association of British Science Writers event on the evening of Tuesday 24 May 2011. He’ll be discussing and taking questions on: - The role of science writing in the spectrum of public engagement - Barriers facing science writing, including libel law - The role of public engagement in policy making. It will take place at our Northampton Square campus, London, EC1V OHB. If you’d like to attend, please register at www.city.ac.uk/events/2011/may/david-willetts-mp-on-science-writing-and-public-engagement<http://www.city.ac.uk/events/2011/may/david-willetts-mp-on-science-writing-and-public-engagement>. 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