medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
It would presumably depend on how far away the church is. Icelandic laws are quite specific
as to who is allowed to take fire to a church (priest or owner), the issue being one of responsibility
if someone is careless.
I am now very far from the original question - is there reference to a specific passage? (i will go back and
hunt!)
IŽd also love literature on the status and function of Welsh bishops and how it is problematic
Meg
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Madeleine Gray
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2010 7:08 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
We did indeed - but would you actually carry fire from the house some way to a church for lighting candles? It struck me that this might be an alternative explanation.
And of course the status and function of bishops in the early medieval Welsh church is a bit problematic.
Maddy
Dr Madeleine Gray
Reader in History
School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
'We are not bound to win but we are bound to be true' (Barack Obama)
________________________________
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture on behalf of John Briggs
Sent: Wed 31/03/2010 11:51 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219
medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
I think we've had this question before (and I think the question
revolved around whether a woman could act as server...): water and salt
would be used for any mass - the fire would just be fire: i.e. for
lighting candles, rather than for the ashes. The only time that I can
think of ashes being employed would be on Ash Wednesday.
John Briggs
On 30/03/2010 19:28, Madeleine Gray wrote:
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> I issed a bit of this strand but I'm struck by the references to salt, water and ashes. Is this specific to the rite for the consecration of a church, or of a priest? I ask because of a reference in the first, anonymous, vita of the Welsh saint Gwenfrewi or Winifred. At a key point in the story her tutor, Beuno, and her family, have gone to church but she is still in the house preparing fire, water and salt for the service. What kind of service would this have been, and what is her role as the person who brings the salt and water and (presumably) the ashes from the fire?
>
> Maddy
>
> Dr Madeleine Gray
> Reader in History
> School of Education/Ysgol Addysg
> University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd
> Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion,
> Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675
>
> 'We are not bound to win but we are bound to be true' (Barack Obama)
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture on behalf of Stan Metheny
> Sent: Tue 30/03/2010 6:25 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
>
> FYI, most of this is still in the Roman Rite today, at least in the 1962 Pontifical (aka Extraordinary Form). Many (most?) of the medieval elements are still in there. Earlier this month there was a rare opportunity to witness (via online video) this rite, including the elements Cate mentions, being celebrated in the consecration of the new chapel of Our Lady of Guadalupe seminary in Denton, Nebraska (US). [The DVD has just been made available http://www.fsspolgs.org/dvd.html. Some good commentary - and some not so great commentary - was included with the live broadcast, as well as the Latin and English texts in a separate pdf. These may be on the DVD as well.]
>
>
>
> As for the symbolism of the elements in the Gregorian water, the traditional explanation is available in various online sources, and is usually along these lines. Salt is a symbol of wisdom, which is the power coming out of the cross, which the heavenly source of new life leads out into the world. Ashes are a symbol of penance. The salt is mixed with the ashes, then both with the water. Where the power coming from above mixes with the penitential acts, then the water of heavenly life is stirred. Lastly wine is blessed and mixed with the water, for that spring fructifies to grace and life in God.
>
>
>
> Stan Metheny
>
>
>
> From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Cate Gunn
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2010 12:45 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [M-R] new priest in 1219
>
>
>
> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
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>
> According to Dominique Iogna-Prat, La Maison Dieu. Une histoire monumentale de l'Eglise au Moyen Age (v.800-v.1200) (Paris, 2006) -- which I believe I learned about from someone on this list -- this is part of the consecration rite that arose during the Carolingian period, and was performed by the officiating bishop, who entered the church alone while the rest of the officiants waited outside with the relics to be inserted in the altar. After inscribing the alphabets on the floor of the church, he exorcised, blessed and mixed the salt, water and cinders used for the aspersion of the church. He also prepared the mortar with which the relics would be sealed into their confessio in the altar. Finally, he blessed the whole building, its ornaments, vestments and liturgical vessels. He then left the church to join the other officiants outside, and after a litany and the blessing of the principal entrance, and a relic procession around the church, he preached a sermon before leading the procession with relics into the church.
> Cheers,
>
> Jim
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> This is very much the sort of thing I've read in the Pontificales - except the bishop enters the church with all the clergy after knocking on the door three times and calling 'Tollite portas'. One deacon had previously entered and closed the door. He responds 'Quis est rex glorie' and the third time the bishop answers, 'Dominus uirtutum ipse est rex glorie'.
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> I suppose my next question will be about the significance of salt, water and ashes - symbolising life and death I presume?
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> thank you everyone for your help so far! especially Rosemary for pointing me in the direction of episcopal registers - I'm pretty sure, although we're in the north of the county, the parish was in the London diocese.
>
> Cate
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>
> AndrewLarsen wrote:
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> medieval-religion: Scholarlydiscussions of medieval religion and culture
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> Might the use of the abcedarium be related to Christ's status as the Alpha and the Omega, ie the totality of the alphabet?
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> Andrew E. Larsen
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> On Mar 30, 2010, at 7:34 AM, John Briggs<[log in to unmask]> wrote:
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> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture
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> On 30/03/2010 12:04, Cate Gunn wrote:
>
> The consecration ceremonies (in the 10th cent. Pontificale Lanaletense and the 12th century Pontifical of Magdalen college) require the 'abcdarium' to be inscribed in the corners of the church - would this be the whole alphabet? What was the significance of this?
>
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> The abcedarium (the whole alphabet) is inscribed (in ashes or sand) diagonally across the church from corner to corner, once in the Latin alphabet and the other time in the Greek alphabet. What was the significance of this? Well, the best guess (see John Wordsworth, On the Consectration of Churches, Especially in the Church of England: A Lecture [1899]) is that this is replicating the initiation ceremonies (baptism, confirmation, first communion) i.e. welcoming the church building as a member of the Christian community! The earliest ordos have the catechism with elements (e.g. the Creed) in both Latin and Greek.
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> John Briggs
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> Cate
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> [log in to unmask]
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