Cheers to Dom for that one! On another topic, can anyone shed some light on where oh where the DCSF got the information which they published in their “Quality, Choice, Aspiration” document stating that ‘Today’s learners will have more than 10 jobs by the age of 38’ and (more alarmingly) that ‘Britain will need 324 000 more scientists and engineers by 2014’?
Thanks if you can point the way!
Oli
Oliver O'Hanlon
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Science Council
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From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dominic McDonald
Sent: 23 February 2010 10:26
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
Oli's assumption is entirely correct (at least in my usage). Apologies to all for whom the jargon is not helpful: an object lesson in clear communication...
Dom
Dom McDonald
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From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Oliver O'Hanlon
Sent: 23 February 2010 10:04
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
Good morning all!!
Im perhaps about to show my ignorance with the following question. Does PUS stand for ‘Public Understanding of Science’ and PEST stand for ‘Public Engagement in Science & Technology? I am making that assumption but would some clever clogs please confirm or correct this for me please.
Cheers all
Oli
Oliver O'Hanlon
Researcher
Science Council
32-36 Loman Street
London SE1 0EH
Tel: 020 7922 7881
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From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Mark Dyball
Sent: 22 February 2010 11:40
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
At PSP, like Roland and Mike, we come from the “terminology matters” camp.
In a guide commissioned by the Research Councils back in 2001 we described a route from monologue to dialogue and the part that different motivations for communicating science can play in choosing communication mechanisms. “Dialogue with the public: Practical guidelines” is still available from the RCUK website and while some of the detail is now dated, (there have been two more surveys of public attitudes since then) some of the arguments still seem to be current.
Best wishes
Mark
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From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dominic McDonald
Sent: 22 February 2010 09:16
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
HI all
This is a really interesting debate. I like what Roland and his team have done in their report, identifying different ways in which people frame the concept of "engagement" in order to meet different objectives. I am also reminded of Brian Trench's work from a few years ago which talks about different "stances" for science engagement: Deference, Dialogue, Deficit and Defence. It's a similar idea but sliced up in a different way.
Jamie's comment about PUS and PEST co-exisiting is quite right (which is lucky, 'cos he works here...). At Science Oxford we do quite a lot of straight PUS-style talks with Q&A (2-3 a month): I'm fine with that because a talk with Q&A is a good way for us to "engage" our core audience, who are quite well-educated, used to listening attentively for longish periods of time, and so who respond well to that sort of context (they pay to come, so they must like it to some extent). Also, because our audiences are rather small (50-60 people) we can have a meaningful Q&A where a significant proportion of the audience gets to have their say. However, we also mix up our programme with other methodologies. We do "Meet the Scientist" style events which are much more dialogic in nature, and "Science in the News", which is almost totally dialogic (and doesn't need an "expert" at all). At the other extreme, we do very pedagogic events called "Science ABC" which are pure deficit model: people come to be "educated", and we do our best to achieve that in the most effective and fun way we can (which does, of course, mean that we include discussion and interaction alongside chalk-and-talk).
So, in a very unhelpful way, I reckon it's horses for courses, and I suppose where I disagree with Roland is that I don't think that the terminology question is terribly important. I recognise that that's probably a classic "coalface" perspective, however, and it is probably true that what we call ourselves-and-what-we-do is important in our communications with policy makers, who get rather hung up on this sort of thing. But would PUS by any other name smell as sweet...?
Dom
Dom McDonald
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Science Oxford
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From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Roland Jackson
Sent: 22 February 2010 08:51
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
I can't imagine Mike toadying to anyone, and this thread shows how live this question of terminology still is. And, as Mike says, it does matter.
Those who have read the Science for All report may notice that although we have used the word 'engagement' liberally (indeed, it was in our terms of reference, twice) we have not actually defined it, except by implication through myriad examples. What I hope we have done is to make explicit many of the different purposes and forms of 'engagement'. In doing so, we have been careful not to make value judgements about this being better than that; it's a question of what's most appropriate given the objective and context.
For the mapping work we generated a working description of different forms of engagement (summarised on p30 of the main report), and a complementary set is explored in Paul Benneworth's accompanying paper. In her own accompanying paper, Lindsey Colbourne points out that there are several different forms of engagement and suggests that consensus needs to be sought on a common set of descriptors(see pp6-8 of Lindsey's paper). As we discovered in the final stages of producing the report, different organisations are quite wedded to their own definitions, because of course they've thought about it carefully in their own context. We did in fact have a narrative section in the draft main report about forms of engagement but had to take it out at the last minute because we couldn't reach sufficient agreement in time.
Perhaps people could look at the descriptors in our report, identify strengths and weaknesses in them, and suggest improvements. Whether we can come to a common set of definitions is an interesting question.
Roland
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kenward
Sent: 20 February 2010 15:10
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
I wasn't saying that PUS doesn't happen, just that nobody calls it that any more, and hasn’t done so for years.
This is partly because the people who throw money into the activity bought the pitch and offer money for “engagement” activities. So the applicants naturally fall into line.
Roland will think that I am toadying up to him, but look no further than his group’s report Science For All – the “Report and action plan from the science for all expert group” – to see how the “E” word has infiltrated thinking. The “U” word appears mostly in the context of understanding engagement.
I am sure that you are right in saying that old style preaching stills goes on, but the priests are too ashamed to admit that this is what they do.
Actually, I know that the old stuff goes on. I referee grant applications for one of the Research Councils, and see bids for “understanding” money.
MK
PS Anyone who has not read the Jackson report yet should do so. Unfortunately, BIS has made a pig’s ear of the place where you can get the thing.
Start here:
or
DO NOT USE THE DOWNLOAD BUTTON AT THE TOP. It takes you off to fill in a form.
Go instead to the link:
Science for All – Final Report and Action Plan
or
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Jamie Condliffe
Sent: 20 February 2010 09:32
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
Mark,
I think it's a little naïve to suggest that PUS gave over to PEST five or more years ago. While there certainly has been a huge increase in engagement-style events, I think it's a push to say that they've entirely overshadowed the more traditional, pedagogic type. Last time I checked, science centres were still running traditional lectures and talks along side these other 'engagement' events.
Also, it's worth questioning whether so-called engagement events succeed in their aims. PEST was based around a desire for dialogue, but, in truth, many of the events that may claim to live up to the PEST title are little more than a talk with a Q&A session tagged on to the end. That's not true dialogue.
Please don't think I'm suggesting that engagement events don't happen, and don't happen well, because they do. I just think that it's dangerous to assume that PEST has somehow magically replaced PUS; far better to see them as two different methodologies that can happily co-exist together. Better still to try and forget about such acronyms and do something that the the public(s) want...
Consumers, punters, customers, victims?
Those "scare quotes" are there for a purpose.
Of course, there are always people who will, by accident or design,
misunderstand or misinterpret anything.
Let's hear a simple alternative to describe the recipients of PESTilence,
something that might engage folks without descending into academic jargon.
PUS gave over to PEST at least five years ago, probably longer. Does anyone
ever use the term now outside of academic journals? Outside the academic
literature, which is always slow to respond, I haven't seen PUS for a long
long time.
Even in the early days, back in the 1980s, when COPUS was a shiny new
committee in the wake of the Bodmer report, there were always concerns about
the PUS term, partly because it missed out the T bit. I failed to get much
interest in PUSET.
I think the first person to use the PEST term privately was Laurence Smaje
of the Wellcome Trust. I then started using it widely in places like this
because the acronym appealed to me and because it had the essential T bit.
The idea behind the change was that "understanding" carries a very different
message from "engagement".
"If only they understood us..." People who write papers on this stuff in
journals like Public Understanding of Science call it, as you say, the
"deficit model".
You may consider it a cynical rebranding. I see it otherwise. Words matter.
Engagement smacks more of a two-way process. You have to do more than
explain science to engage people.
Engagement can also happily encompass understanding. After all, if people
don't understand what you are saying they aren't likely to become engaged.
But understanding on its own does not engage.
MK
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
Subject: [PSCI-COM] Does PEST supplant or subsume PUS?
I've been impressed by the gradual move from PUS to PEST over the last few
years. But a bit wary at the same time. For me, the name change implies a
change in the perspective of SET communication. It nicely fits with what a
recent (not yet published - OnlineFirst) paper for the Public Understanding
of Science journal refers to as the 'dialogic turn'. For the incorrigible
cynic, though, it's just an empty rebranding - an effort to wash off the
stink of the deficit model with which the critics lambasted PUS back in the
80s without taking any of the criticism on board.
I don't mean to pick on Mike, but his referring to 'consumers' - even with
the scare quotes - sounds a bit off-message in the brave new world of PEST.
Or have I been misreading the name change? Is PEST, perhaps, just a bigger
tent within which there's room for good old-fashioned PUS, or some of it at
least - alongside other new dialogic things? I imagine, for example, that
there may be plenty of SET communicators who happily do PUS for school
children just as it was being done 20-plus years ago, because school
children are, by definition, learning, are _understanding_ and are _not_
voting.
Chris
-----Original Message-----
From: psci-com: on public engagement with science
[mailto:
[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Michael Kenward
Sent: 19 February 2010 12:58
To:
[log in to unmask]Subject: Re: [PSCI-COM] Joined-up working and information sharing
Absolutely, especially this bit:
"The first step is surely to have information sharing and joined-up working
between activities of a common type or purpose, and a number of our actions
and recommendations are aimed at that (e.g. in the training and development
arena)."
One of my beefs has been the duplication that goes on. In the past too many
engineering bodies, for example, have run similar schemes aimed at schools.
Fortunately, I sense that there is progress on that front.
On gaps, one point worth pondering is the needs of the "consumers".
If PESTs here don't know about everything that goes on in their area -
which, as Roland's report points out, is not easy - what hope is there for
the over worked school teacher? Where do they begin?
MK
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