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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Meg, According to Laura Hibbard Loomis, “The Holy Relics of Charlemagne and King Athelstan: The Lances of Longinus and St Mauricius,” /Speculum/, XXV, no. 4 (Oct. 1950), 437-56, at p. 441: "most of the Passion relics, the Cross, the Nails, the Thorns, had, according to medieval belief, the curious faculty of multiplying themselves." There is also a reference to J.A. MacCulloch, /Medieval Faith and Fable/ (London, 1932), p. 140: “Paulinus (/Ep/. 31) says that part of the Cross at Jerusalem gave off fragments without diminishing … The Nails of the Cross had the same power of reproducing themselves.” Although I don't know which Paulinus this may have been. Cheers, Jim Cormack, Margaret Jean wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Hi Jim, > Do you have a reference for this property of the true cross? > Meg > > ________________________________ > > From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture on behalf of Dr Jim Bugslag > Sent: Sat 30.1.2010 12:14 > To: [log in to unmask] > Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 27. January > > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Actually, Maddy, the explanation for the proliferation of True Cross > relics is even more highly unlikely but interesting than contact relics. > The True Cross was considered to have the property that when one broke a > bit off, it was not diminished, thus providing the possibility of > unlimited splinter relics. There were also miraculous candles that were > considered capable of being aflame without diminishing. I actually > managed to prove this in my high school chemistry class, although my > teacher was not much impressed. > Cheers, > Jim > > Madeleine Gray wrote: > >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> This whole contact relic thing does of course explain the huge number >> of nails, fragments of the True Cross etc that were around by the C16. >> It's a kind of homeopathic approach, I guess ... >> It's also psychologically compelling even today. I may have mentioned >> before that my daughter sang in the choir at the opening of our >> Millennium Stadium and the 2000 Rugby World Cup. The choir were taken >> to see the Cup and actually allowed to touch it - and she touched a >> piece of her programme to it and kept that for a long time as a >> contact relic. >> Maddy >> Dr Madeleine Gray >> Reader in History >> School of Education/Ysgol Addysg >> University of Wales, Newport/Prifysgol Cymru, Casnewydd >> Caerleon Campus/Campws Caerllion, >> Newport/Casnewydd NP18 3QT Tel: +44 (0)1633.432675 >> 'You may not be able to change the world but at least you can >> embarrass the guilty' >> (Jessica Mitford) >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *From:* medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval >> religious culture on behalf of Dr Jim Bugslag >> *Sent:* Fri 29/01/2010 9:07 PM >> *To:* [log in to unmask] >> *Subject:* Re: [M-R] saints of the day 27. January >> >> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture >> >> Dear Judith, >> I agree with you that this practice seems "highly unlikely but >> interesting", but the fact is that much medieval practice fits that >> exact description. Such chemises were sent not just to French queens but >> to noble women and even churches. One was presented, for example, in >> 1531 to Queen Eleanor of Austria (the earliest surviving reference, re. >> a queen), but in 1540 the ambassador of Renee of Ferrara returned home >> with no less than three. Earlier, however, the 1477 inventory of >> Fontevrault lists four chemises from Chartres, presumably donated by the >> noble ladies who became nuns there. The last recorded offering, in 1811, >> was to the Empress Marie-Louise. The early modern antiquary, l'abbe >> Brillon, wrote a detailed description of such a "chemise de Chartres", >> accompanied by a sketch, which he found in the parish church at Bonce, >> in the diocese of Chartres (both reproduced in Tresors de la Cathedrale >> de Chartres, exh. cat. (Chartres, 2002), p. 52). >> But it gets more unlikely but interesting than that. Knights were in the >> habit of bringing their own tunics to Chartres and touching the >> Sainte-Chasse with them. This, it was thought, would protect them in >> battle. The 1389 Vieille Chronique describes this almost as a mass >> movement. There are reports that King Richard the Lionheart wore such a >> tunic during the Third Crusade (I have yet to see any firm documentation >> on this), but there were quite a few English references to such tunics >> by the 14th century. And one or two such tunics which were actually >> believed to have saved their wearers in battle were eventually hung, as >> votive offerings, in the crossing of the cathedral. >> And to top it all off, thousands of "chemisettes" were also produced at >> Chartres: small metal replicas of the Holy Tunic, which were sent in the >> thousands to the Knights of Malta, bought by pilgrims, etc. I, in fact, >> have a small silver chemisette with a ring mount, so that it can be worn >> around one's neck, which opens up to reveal a collection of relics (I >> haven't yet dared to remove the tiny labels to try to see if I can >> identify the relics), and in the late 17th century, the canons of >> Chartres sent quite a large chemisette reliquary to the Huron mission >> just outside of Quebec City. The best collection of them, however, is in >> the Musee des Beaux-Arts at Chartres. >> Cheers, >> Jim >> >> Judith Rosenberg wrote: >> >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>> culture There is another tale told in the Memoires de la societe >>> archeologique d'Eure-et-Loir, vol. 9, by F. de Mély, called "Les >>> Chemises de la Vierge," in which the reliquary is described as being >>> of cedar, which would speak well to the preservation of the >>> nightdress, and a custom of offering to the pregnant queen of France a >>> copy of the nightdress and that this custom survived until 1811. The >>> article is readable online through a google search. The author cites >>> the custom as dating at least to the early 16th c. It all seems highly >>> unlikely but interesting... >>> >>> >>> On 1/29/10 12:23 AM, "Marjorie Greene" <[log in to unmask]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and >>> culture >>> Thanks, Jim. I should have googled "chartres reliquary 1712" >>> first, then I would have had your article before me and not had to >>> bother the list. >>> There was another fluffier website that talked of cutting the veil >>> - or whatever - into pieces, that it was dated from NT times, etc. >>> MG >>> >>> Marjorie Greene >>> http://medrelart.shutterfly.com/ >>> >>> --- On *Thu, 1/28/10, Dr Jim Bugslag /<[log in to unmask]>/* >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Dr Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]> >>> Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 27. January >>> To: [log in to unmask] >>> Date: Thursday, January 28, 2010, 9:46 PM >>> >>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion >>> and culture >>> >>> Marjorie, >>> According to Yves Delaporte, a very knowledgeable canon of >>> Chartres in the early 20th century, the venerable old >>> Sainte-Chasse was opened with the intention of translating the >>> relics in it to a new reliquary, since the old one, reputedly >>> made in the late 10th century, was falling apart. At some time >>> in the 17th century, a special rod of gold had been made in >>> order to poke about through the holes in it, and there was a >>> repair effected in 1679. Shortly later, though, it was claimed >>> that fabric could be seen through the holes in the shrine. >>> Nevertheless, a new reliquary was not made in 1712, and that >>> may have been because of the shock and disappointment of not >>> finding the Holy Tunic within. All that was found was a length >>> of silk that was immediately interpreted as the Virgin's Veil. >>> A brave face was put on, but the Veil was stuffed back into >>> its rickety old reliquary until the French Revolution, when >>> the reliquary was melted down, but the relic saved. That is >>> the "official" story, in any case. There were occasional >>> references, however, to a Veil from the late 13th century, and >>> I can't help suspecting that the good canons had sneaked a >>> peak much earlier than 1712. We will probably never know the >>> whole story. >>> Cheers, >>> Jim >>> >>> Marjorie Greene wrote: >>> >>>> medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion >>>> >>> and culture >>> >>>> Jim Bugslag wrote: reliquary (which when opened in 1712 was >>>> >>> found [not to contain a tunic] >>> >>>> Now I'm curious why this reliquary was opened in 1712. Louis >>>> >>> XIV surely wasn't hoping for any more children... >>> >>>> MG >>>> >>>> >>>> ********************************************************************** >>>> >>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion >>> YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] >>> <http:[log in to unmask]> >>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>> [log in to unmask] >>> >>> >> <http:[log in to unmask]> >> >>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>> to: [log in to unmask] >>> <http:[log in to unmask]> >>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, >>> write to: [log in to unmask] >>> >>> >> <http:[log in to unmask]> >> >>> For further information, visit our web site: >>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>> >>> ********************************************************************** >>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion >>> YOUR NAME >>> to: [log in to unmask] >>> <http:[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> To send a message to the list, address it to: >>> [log in to unmask] >>> >>> >> <http:[log in to unmask]> >> >>> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >>> to: [log in to unmask] >>> <http:[log in to unmask]> >>> >>> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, >>> write to: >>> [log in to unmask] >>> >>> >> <http:[log in to unmask]> >> >>> For further information, visit our web site: >>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>> >>> ********************************************************************** >>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion >>> YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the >>> list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave >>> the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: >>> [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to >>> contact the list's owners, write to: >>> [log in to unmask] For further >>> information, visit our web site: >>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>> >>> >>> ********************************************************************** >>> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >>> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >>> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the >>> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order >>> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >>> [log in to unmask] For further information, >>> visit our web site: >>> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >>> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] >> To send a message to the list, address it to: >> [log in to unmask] >> To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion >> to: [log in to unmask] >> In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] >> For further information, visit our web site: >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >> >> ********************************************************************** >> To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME >> to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it >> to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the >> message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order >> to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: >> [log in to unmask] For further information, >> visit our web site: >> http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html >> > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to 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