medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

From: Herwig Weigl <[log in to unmask]>

>> but, you are saying that Innocent wasn't responsible for its

> yes

>> i do know that we start seeing Italian canons in the chapter of Chartres in
the course of the 13th c., and always assumed that that was an indication of
increasing Papal influence yes, in many cases such people got their prebends
by papal provision --though not quite the same thing as demanding (much less
actually getting) that a bishop get an official OkeyDoaky from the Papa
himself .

> archbishops needed to receive their pallium from Rome. 

i wasn't aware of that (though, of course, i should have been).

if Chartres had been an archiepiscopal see, i would have known it.

>Bishops were meant to be canonically elected, and this was sufficient.
Innocent III was very clear about this. The pope's involvement was brought
about by any irregularity (disputed election, translation from one see to
another, prolongued vacancy ...). 

or simply if circumstances happened to come together in such a fashion as to
allow the Pope to play a role.

i'm thinking in particular about the circumstances surrounding the
installation of Bishop (St.) Ivo's successor at Chartres.

Godfrey (of Leves) was an archdeacon in the chapter, had taken a vow to go to
the Holy Land, and was in Rome, on his way there, when word reached him that
Ivo had died and he had been elected his successor.

Godfrey asked the Pope to absolve him of his vow, which was, apparently, done,
and he was (i assume) anointed Bishop of Chartres by the Pope.

almost immediately upon his return to Chartres Godfrey founded a Benedictine
monastery on his family lands at Leves, just outside of Chartres, calling it
"St. Mary of Jesaphat"

at least, that is the tradition which the monks of Josaphat nurtured about its
own origins.

>Innocent III was very clear about this as well, but especially in the 14th
century the definition of what was irregular was more and more broadened, so
papal influence increased. 

so, the Vatican "broadens" the rules governing regularity and, thereby, its
"influence" over... who gets elected?

>The relevant definitions were put down rather in chancery instructions than
in decretals.

a distinction which only a canon lawyer can appreciate, i'm afraid.

thanks for the clarification, Herwig.


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