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eeek, just had another thought... has anyone tested this behaviour on the Heritage Gateway? We definitely set the "HBSMR Gateway" up to include narrow terms by default, so a search for CAIRN should find CLEARANCE CAIRNs and BURIAL CAIRNs (etc); and I think we probably took care of the child terms "problem" at the time, but now I'm worried perhaps not... I'll check this when back in the office, and perhaps someone with data in the Heritage Gateway could test for this? (advanced search) best wishes Crispin ________________________________ From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records on behalf of CARLISLE, Philip Sent: Wed 13/01/2010 15:45 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context Hi Sylvina, Yes sorry, re-reading it, does look as if we're just letting you know rather than getting involved. With regards to CAIRN we think the sensible option is to remove it as a broader term of BURIAL CAIRN and CLEARANCE CAIRN and move it to MONUMENT <BY FORM>. BURIAL CAIRN would then float under FUNERARY SITE and CAIRN (in monument <by form>) and similarly CLEARANCE CAIRN would just float under AG and SUB. So CAIRN may have been solved (let us know if you think this solution works/doesn't work etc) but we still have to look at homographing the other terms. Any suggestions anyone? Phil Phil Carlisle Data Standards Supervisor English Heritage National Monuments Record Centre Kemble Drive Swindon SN2 2GZ +44 (0)1793 414824 http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/ The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent. Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author. P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Sylvina Tilbury Sent: 13 January 2010 15:20 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Narrower Terms: Context Hello Phil To be fair, your email wasn't really presented as a possible option but as the solution, but I'm glad that you're open to discussion on this one. As an HBSMR user, I for one am all too aware of the background to this as the Cairn problem has been a real bugbear of mine. Looking at the Monument <By Form> class, it seems to have been used in a similar way before so I wouldn't have any objection to that solution. Surely though you would not then need to break it down into Cairn (Agricultural) and Cairn (Ritual) etc. , so your broad term could just be Cairn? There are several other types of cairn in the thesaurus - presumably these would all be assigned as narrow terms under the proposed broad term under Monument <By Form>? Sylvina Sylvina Tilbury | HER Officer | Planning & Development Service | Highland Council Glenurquhart Road, Inverness, IV3 5NX | T: 01463 702503 | F: 01463 702298 Highland HER: http://her.highland.gov.uk <http://her.highland.gov.uk/> -----Original Message----- From: Issues related to Historic Environment Records [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of CARLISLE, Philip Sent: 13 January 2010 14:55 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Narrower Terms: Context Dear all, I though it might be useful to provide some context behind the proposed changes to the terms I posted this morning. The Data Standards Unit is undertaking this work at the behest of a large proportion of the HER community. Crispin Flower on behalf of the HBMSMR users group sent me the following back in September. Hi Phil The problem with the thesaurus narrow terms keeps cropping up, with HBSMR users getting unexpected/incorrect results to searches. For example, we have recently had Staffordshire having trouble searching for BRIDGE and its narrow terms, because the various instances of BRIDGE have different narrow terms. They are using the latest v10 thesaurus release. When we last discussed this in April 2008, we provided a list of the worst offending terms (see below), and you were going to see if and when fixing this could be scheduled into the DSU work programme - has there been any progress here? If this is not going to happen within a useful timescale, we'll together need to look into other ways of resolving this, i.e. to make changes in HBSMR to how the searching works (which could be resourced either by the users' "Development Reserve" or by EH). Best wishes Crispin Unlike the EH software which returns all instances of a term and its narrow terms (so a search on CAIRN would also bring back CLEARANCE CAIRN as well as BURIAL CAIRN) the exeGesIS software searches on the instance (ie. position in the hierarchy) and its narrower terms which may differ, thus returning "unexpected/incorrect" results. To solve this problem Crispin supplied us with a copy of a spreadsheet with the 'problematic' terms in and for the most part these were easy enough to fix as there was no problem with the hierarchical positions. Only the 12 terms which I sent earlier need further work. What the solutions for those terms are is for us as a community to decide. All we (DSU) are trying to do is to provide a quick fix for a large proportion of the community. What I sent out this morning was an EXAMPLE of one approach and, as I replied to Andrew Nicholson off list, we may end up having a catch all term like CAIRN (MONUMENT) under MONUMENT <BY FORM> to solve the problems where the interpretation is uncertain (and no, Chris building uncertainty into the thesaurus is not an option!). So by all means discuss the problem terms but don't shoot the messenger. Phil Phil Carlisle Data Standards Supervisor English Heritage National Monuments Record Centre Kemble Drive Swindon SN2 2GZ +44 (0)1793 414824 http://thesaurus.english-heritage.org.uk/ The information contained within this e-mail is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee only. If you have received the e-mail in error, please inform the sender and delete it from your system. The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed to anyone else or copied without the sender's consent. Any views and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of English Heritage. English Heritage will not take any responsibility for the views of the author. P Please do not print this e-mail unless you really need to ________________________________ This email has been scanned by Netintelligence http://www.netintelligence.com/email ________________________________ Unless related to the business of The Highland Council, the views or opinions expressed within this email are those of the sender and do not necessarily reflect those of The Highland Council, or associated bodies, nor does this email form part of any contract unless so stated. ________________________________ Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What about saving energy? Visit our new website www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk <http://www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk/> today. This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available. ________________________________ Concerned about how climate change may affect older properties? What about saving energy? Visit our new website www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk <http://www.climatechangeandyourhome.org.uk/> today. This e-mail (and any attachments) is confidential and may contain personal views which are not the views of English Heritage unless specifically stated. If you have received it in error, please delete it from your system and notify the sender immediately. Do not use, copy or disclose the information in any way nor act in reliance on it. Any information sent to English Heritage may become publicly available.