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I guess there's a lot of baggage that comes with Marx. What about Dickens? Hard Times (1854) is a pretty miserable tome liberally anti trade union and anti capitalist, but there is a fantastic passage which should be read out aloud before any public discussion on deregulation: Coketown in the distance was suggestive of itself, though not a brick of it could be seen. The wonder was, it was there at all. It had been ruined so often, that it was amazing how it had borne so many shocks. Surely there never was such fragile china-ware as that of which the millers of Coketown were made. Handle them never so lightly, and they fell to pieces with such ease that you might suspect them of having been flawed before. They were ruined, when they were required to send labouring children to school; they were ruined when inspectors were appointed to look into their works; they were ruined, when such inspectors considered it doubtful whether they were quite justified in chopping people up with their machinery; they were utterly undone, when it was hinted that perhaps they need not always make quite so much smoke. Besides Mr. Bounderby's gold spoon which was generally received in Coketown, another prevalent fiction was very popular there. It took the form of a threat. Whenever a Coketowner felt he was ill-used - that is to say, whenever he was not left entirely alone, and it was proposed to hold him accountable for the consequences of any of his acts - he was sure to come out with the awful menace, that he would 'sooner pitch his property into the Atlantic.' This had terrified the Home Secretary within an inch of his life, on several occasions. Mike Hughes From: The Health Equity Network (HEN) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adam Oliver Sent: 12 May 2009 16:27 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Plato on Inequality I haven't been through this list carefully, but I suspect many of the deaths are in the construction industry, a sector that has been traditionally hostile to unionisation and tends to be Conservative with a large 'C'. I worked in construction for a little while, and I suspect that if many of you left wing idealists ventured on to many sites, you'd be chased off with a shovel (as I almost was, a few times). Anyway, ultimately I believe in free speech, so good to see that many of you are not slow in expressing your views. _____ From: The Health Equity Network (HEN) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Nick Emmel Sent: 12 May 2009 16:08 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Plato on Inequality According the UK Health Executive 229 people died at work in 2007/08 and 800,000 injured or made ill due to poor standards of health and safety. The names, cause of death, ages, and sectors in which these 229 people died are listed at <http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2008-9.htm> http://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/fatalities/2008-9.htm for those with a strong stomach. No mention of pencil sharpeners anywhere in the list. Anyway, this is not what Engels was talking about directly. He was talking about social murder, and he accused our whole society of perpetuating this crime perpetually. Rightly so. We should remind policy makers of this at every opportunity. Susan Rosenthal has written a rather fine imagined conversation with Engels about health inequalities (see <http://susanrosenthal.com/articles/engels-and-the-who-report> http://susanrosenthal.com/articles/engels-and-the-who-report) which points, as Bob and Dennis note, to how relevant Engels' observations are today. Best wishes Nick Dr Nick Emmel School of Sociology and Social Policy University of Leeds Leeds LS2 9JT +44 (0) 113 343 6958 http://www.sociology.leeds.ac.uk/about/staff/emmel.php Real Life Methods Part of the ESRC National Centre for Research Methods http://www.reallifemethods.ac.uk/research/connected/ Timescapes ESRC Qualitative Longitudinal Initiative http://www.timescapes.leeds.ac.uk <http://www.timescapes.leeds.ac.uk/> _____ From: The Health Equity Network (HEN) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adam Oliver Sent: 12 May 2009 15:29 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Plato on Inequality Hold on a second Bob. Firstly, I don't think I'm suffering from a lack of humility, but I might be, so I'll take your word for that. I am all for academic discourse (that's mostly what I do). But I thought that the people on this list actually wanted to address health inequalities, which I think needs an engagement with political, economic and social reality. Engels' descriptions of the working classes when he was around may be excellent, but, I suspect, are irrelevant today. How are most people going to suffer at work? Death by a thousand pencil sharpener cuts? The vast majority of people have more chance of being electrocuted by their DVD players than through the sufferings of the workplace. The reason why this frustrates me is that it is damaging (I think) for those who actually wish to engage with policy makers, to at least talk about what can realistically be done. _____ From: Robert Williams [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 12 May 2009 15:13 To: Oliver,AJ; [log in to unmask] Subject: RE: Plato on Inequality Thanks I really enjoy reading the material within this network. I do think, however, Adam, that a little more humility might be useful. For, example, I had forgotten how valuable Engels descriptions and analysis of the experiences of working class people were. Old Engels and Marx had a real passionate sense of concern for working class people, and a desire for their health and welfare to be liberated from the inherent inequalities within an ever expanding international capitalist system. Quite reasonable really, surely? Irrelevant now? For Adam, but not for me. Bob Williams _____ From: The Health Equity Network (HEN) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Adam Oliver Sent: 12 May 2009 14:47 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Plato on Inequality This might be relevant if we are talking about England circa 1850. In the UK context, it is probably almost entirely irrelevant today (it may well be relevant in the developing country context of course, but that brings forth a whole different set of issues). I thought the UK members of HEN actually wanted to try to address health inequalities in the UK. We have a disgraced parliament (on the whole), a terminally ill Labour government, an impending not-very-centre right Conservative Government (we need a new political party here), the largest public sector deficit in history, and a major economic recession. And people are quoting Marx. (ok - I quoted Aristotle, but I thought his point, or interpretations thereof were relevant) Do we need a dose of reality? _____ From: The Health Equity Network (HEN) [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Dennis Raphael Sent: 12 May 2009 12:23 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: Plato on Inequality another philosopher? When one individual inflicts bodily injury upon another such injury that death results, we call the deed manslaughter; when the assailant knew in advance that the injury would be fatal, we call his deed murder. When society places workers in such a position that they inevitably meet a too early and an unnatural death, one which is quite as much a death by violence as that by the sword or bullet; when it deprives thousands of the necessaries of life, places them under conditions in which they cannot live - forces them, through the strong arm of the law, to remain in such conditions until that death ensues which is the inevitable consequence - knows that these thousands of victims must perish, and yet permits these conditions to remain, its deed is murder just as surely as the deed of the single individual; disguised, malicious murder, murder against which none can defend himself, which does not seem what it is, because no man sees the murderer, because the death of the victim seems a natural one, since the offence is more one of omission than of commission. But murder it remains... <http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engles_Condition_of_the _Working_Class_in_England.pdf> http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/download/Engles_Condition_of_the_ Working_Class_in_England.pdf Dennis Raphael, PhD Professor of Health Policy and Management York University 4700 Keele Street Room 418, HNES Building Toronto, Ontario M3J 1P3 416-736-2100, ext. 22134 email: [log in to unmask] <http://www.atkinson.yorku.ca/draphael> http://www.atkinson.yorku.ca/draphael Of interest: *NEW* Social Determinants of Health: Canadian Perspectives, 2nd edition, edited by Dennis Raphael Forewords by Carolyn Bennett and Roy Romanow <http://tinyurl.com/5l6yh9> http://tinyurl.com/5l6yh9 Poverty and Policy in Canada: Implications for Health and Quality of Life by Dennis Raphael Foreword by Jack Layton <http://tinyurl.com/2hg2df> http://tinyurl.com/2hg2df Staying Alive: Critical Perspectives on Health, Illness, and Health Care, edited by Dennis Raphael, Toba Bryant, and Marcia Rioux Foreword by Gary Teeple <http://tinyurl.com/2zqrox> http://tinyurl.com/2zqrox See a lecture! The Politics of Population Health <http://msl.stream.yorku.ca/mediasite/viewer/?peid=ac604170-9ccc-4268-a1af-9 a9e04b28e1d> http://msl.stream.yorku.ca/mediasite/viewer/?peid=ac604170-9ccc-4268-a1af-9a 9e04b28e1d Also, presentation on Politics and Health at the Centre for Health Disparities in Cleveland Ohio <http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4129139685624192201&hl=en> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4129139685624192201&hl=en Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm Please access the attached hyperlink for an important electronic communications disclaimer: http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/secretariat/legal/disclaimer.htm