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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture From: Laura Jacobus <[log in to unmask]> > Just to add (out of concern for Christopher's eyesight) that the images come up larger if you scroll down this site, confirming Robert's valuable points. > http://cgi.ebay.de/ANTIPHONAR-IMPERIALFOLIO-PERGAMENT-MINIATUR-1400-8_W0QQitemZ200266810815QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiquarische_B%C3%BCcher?hash=item200266810815&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318 sorry, Laura (and many thanks for your well-founded concern for my eyesight --or lack thereof-- if not for the obvious incipient Oldtimer's which you were too kind to mention), but i'm *still* not able to see more than a *single* "illumination" on that site, which contains but a single leaf (with two sides) up for auction. > I'm still intrigued by the comparison with the S. Stephen miniature (part I.2) and the Baptist one (part I.1 >http://www.reiss-sohn.de/auktion/bilder/923.jpg ), presumably from a different manuscript?? >or does everyone just accept that the Baptist is a forgery? i don't recall any discussion of this figure one way or 'tother (and i haven't even seen it before). i see nothing whatever there to suggest "forgery" --though the "style" is a bit "funky" (technical jargon, again), if not to say downright Clumsy: e.g., the arms and head are much too small for the body (which is, in its turn, much too wide). but, the drapery patterns are executed with reasonable (if thoroughly unimaginative) skill, and the head itself seems delicate enough --hard to see here, in any detail. there is certainly *no* evidence of any "repainting," that i can make out. taken as a whole, seems to me, the figure is not at all inconsistent with a late medieval style, especially an Italian one of this stylistically very tumultuous period. and would be very, very difficult for any modern "forger" to replicate convincingly. >My sense is that most correspondents don't think that the S.Stephen page is forged, last we heard, Erik thinks it is. i don't. Bob is ambivalent (or, perhaps, agnostic) on the issue, i think. >but that the text does show signs of alteration for reasons that are not necessarily connected with forgery. certainly (considering the paleography), there is something fishy (jargon again) seems to be going on in that first line of the musical text on the recto --two hands at work, at the least. "forgery" is *possible,* but it's difficult (at least for me) to see what any "modern" forger would gain by changing a single line of text. >To my eye, the Baptist remains problematic: among other things the figure style seems later than the initial, certainly a different hand (i'm assuming they are from the same manuscript??). and, yes, the Stephen is considerably more "archaic" in his formulae for faces and hands --and not much at all in the way of drapery articulation in the Stephen, contrary to the Baptist. >but I'm not a MSS person think of it as just a painting. >and the image is too small to determine whether this is due to a Renaissance beware the Tyranny of a Modern Construct. >updating of an earlier initial, well, the ms itself is surely "Renaissance" isn't it? so, there wouldn't be any "updating" involved at all. if anything, i would be happier with the Stephen being an "interpolation" from a previous century (say, the 9th). which, because of the peculiar shape of our present Space-Time Continuum, is difficult for us to conceive of, short of a Star Trek Next Generation episode. >or a modern interpolation. it's just too "medieval" for that, imHo. > I incline to agree with Erik that its a forgery, but it would be nice to hear more informed views. The discussion on the S. Stephen MS has been fascinating (if at times not as courteous as one might wish) i hope nothing i've said previously might be misconstrued as being not "courteous." certainly my respect for the work of both Erik and Bob is quite limitless. and of your own, i know not, but am quite willing to assume the Best. >and I'd like to know whether Erik has changed his views about one or both MSS. me, too. c ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html