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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture ----- Original Message ----- From: "Laura Jacobus" <[log in to unmask]> To: "medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture" <[log in to unmask]> Sent: 22 April 2009 16:05 Subject: Re: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] Recent forgeries part I.2 (and I.1) > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > Just to add (out of concern for Christopher's eyesight) that the images > come up larger if you scroll down this site, confirming Robert's valuable > points. > > http://cgi.ebay.de/ANTIPHONAR-IMPERIALFOLIO-PERGAMENT-MINIATUR-1400-8_W0QQitemZ200266810815QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAntiquarische_B%C3%BCcher?hash=item200266810815&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A1|39%3A1|240%3A1318 > > I'm still intrigued by the comparison with the S.Stephen miniature (part > I.2) and the Baptist one (part I.1 > http://www.reiss-sohn.de/auktion/bilder/923.jpg ), or does everyone just > accept that the Baptist is a forgery? My sense is that most > correspondents don't think that the S.Stephen page is forged, but that the > text does show signs of alteration for reasons that are not necessarily > connected with forgery. To my eye, the Baptist remains problematic: among > other things the figure style seems later than the initial, but I'm not a > MSS person and the image is too small to determine whether this is due to > a Renaissance updating of an earlier initial, or a modern interpolation. > I incline to agree with Erik that its a forgery, but it would be nice to > hear more informed views. The discussion on the S. Stephen MS has been > fascinating (if at times not as courteous as one might wish) and I'd like > to know whether Erik has changed his views about one or both MSS. > > Laura > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Christopher Crockett" <[log in to unmask]> > To: <[log in to unmask]> > Sent: 22 April 2009 15:27 > Subject: [SPAM]Re: [M-R] Recent forgeries part I.2 > > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > From: Robert Kraft <[log in to unmask]> > >> Sometimes I wonder if we are all looking at the same images. > > that's a reasonable explanation. > > though there is only one leaf here, with only two sides, a recto and a > verso. > > i'll try and insert links to the precise ones, as i go along. > >>While it may be true that nothing has been changed on the second side (the > side with the unadorned blue large S in Solue) > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/37.jpg > > detail: > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/38.jpg > > given the location of the sewing holes, we might call that the "verso" of > the > leaf, mightn't we not? > >> where bleed-through is indeed evident, > > bleed-through is evident on both sides, is it not? > >>it is also clear that on the first side (with the decorated red S), > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/33.jpg > > detail: > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/35.jpg > > by default (if nothing else, accepting the premise re the other side), we > could style that one as the "verso." > >>that entire line which now reads Sede(runt) has been modified, > > ? > > how is that "clear"? > >>and the underwriting is still decipherable (Et enim sede). > > sorry. > > you lost me entirely there. > > perhaps we are not looking at the same image. > > but i'll be jiggered if i can see an "Et enim sede" anywhere on this page > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/33.jpg > > and i can see no "underwriting" below the main text of the chant, > anywhere, > either. > > you Manuscript guys sure do have sharp eyes. > > clearly, i should stick to Monumental Sculpture. > > or go for Architecture. > > or, morebetter, City Planning. > > or change my glasses prescription. > > or, perhaps, All of the Above. > >>And it doesn't take much paleographical skill > > now your talking my language. > >>to observe that the newly written "d" in that line > > the "Se*d*e" line... > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/33.jpg > >>is not appropriate to the original hand -- see the final line on that page > (domine deus) or the Solue line on the next page ending with "de." > > or the "d" in "aduersu[m]" just below the "Sede". > > yes, even i can see that. > >>The ink of that "new style" "d" also created more obvious > bleed-through on the other side of the page (in the Solue line). > > yes. > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/37.jpg > > reading as a light "b" between "Sol" and "ue". > > good point. > > the "d" on the first line of the recto is a definite "insertion," most > likely > by a different (and more archaic??) hand, but not *necessarily* a modern > one. > >>Also the left side curvature of the two "e" letters in the rewritten line > > "S...e...de..." here: > > http://www.neumann-walter.de/NW/November2007/27.11.07/33.jpg > >>is too smooth/regular when compared to the original "e" letters. > > i would say that those first "e"s are much more rounded and "fat" (to use > the > technical jargon) than the "original" ones elsewhere on both sides. > >>When and why the changes were made is another matter, > > yes. > > quite. > >>but changes there were, at least on that decorated line. > > taking Erik's original point about the "shadow" letters in that line being > "erasures" (and discarding my previous suggestion that they are > bleed-throughs > from a facing page), we would simply have some mistaken text in that line > which was replaced (whenever) by a correct (and much shorter) one. > > but, that Dog won't Hunt: *what* text could have been there? > > starting with the "original" ornamented (but not illuminated), > white-on-blue > "E", a word (or syllable) or two, a phrase which ends in the "ru[n]t" in > the > next line.... > > doesn't make much sense. > > seems to me (unencumbered by any actual knowledge of the subject) that a > page > like this would have been "built" up in stages. > > first pricked and ruled (not visible in these .jpgs), then > the box for the initial initial and the musical lining traced out, then > the > text and the music itself (which of those came first??)... > > i just don't see how a "mistake" like we see in that first line could have > been made. > > nor do i see how the "e...de" could have been a modern insertion. > > > the nice thing about a complex problem like this is that, more often than > not, > there is only one way the pieces to the jig-saw puzzle can go together. > > all that has to be done is to find that one, good, solution which > satisfies > all the necessary parameters. > > simple. > > c > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html