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Well - Lec's quote is talking about "progress", and fits rather easily in that whole Eurocentric colonialist discourse which mediates between the civilised and the primitive worlds. Which is how I read it. Cannibalism is in the popular imagination associated with "primitive" (ie black or darkly coloured, certainly Indigenous and Third World) peoples. Think Indiana Jones. Which I love, but which doesn't bear too much examination. The only white cannibals I can think of are Sawney Bean and his family, and they're considered gruesome freaks, not the emblematic image of the Scots (or that gay German cannibal who advertised for his dinner). If it's funny, it's because of the assumed impossibility of a "cannibal" (complete with skull necklace and bodypaint) eating with a knife and fork. It doesn't work with a Scot or a German. Not to make too heavy weather of it, but racism, sexism, homophobia etc operate mostly at a level of assumed mutual knowledge, ie subtextally. Which is ironically enough a result of said PC, which polices the language but ignores what's behind it. That's where the proper critique of PC conventions should exist, since the language morphs without making any differences to the structured realities that inform racism etc. The right wing attacks on PC means attacking the whole idea that there is any such things as racism, sexism etc. It gets complex - for example, it's often the misogynist men who feel compelled to explain to you how unsexist they are, because they assiduously observe the proper language, and I've often got on hilariously well with men who are overtly sexist, but who in their actions just take people as they come. Anyway, I've work to do and should stop blathering. I'm meeting Patti Smith on Friday - how cool is that? xA On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 10:14 AM, Judy Prince <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Yeah, race does seem a heated issue, doesn't it? My son is black on his > father's side, and we're all USAmericans, so it's not difficult to imagine > racism. But, Alison, I'd never heard that expression that Kasper quoted. > And, I've never considered a cannibal a black person, but rather a person > who eats another person. THAT is why I didn't 'get' it. > You'll find it difficult to get me upset or angry about racism or sexism > 'talks' and 'xplanations'; my feeling is that the more we say about it the > better we are. The less we say about it the worse we are. So I can feel a > nice waft of honesty heading from your country to mine with this exchange, > not heat and anger. > > Best, of course, > > Judy > > 2008/10/7 Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> > >> I don't want to get into any heated arguments or insults - but I can't >> understand why the racism isn't obvious. As I said, I don't know the >> context of the remark. It's racist because it implies that a >> "primitive" man is inalienably primitive: even if he adopts the >> manners and outward veneer cultivation of a white man, he will still >> be in his essential being a black man, a "cannibal", and thus >> inferior, primitive and inimical to "progress". Fanon is good at >> excavating these processes, if you're interested. It's the same >> inflection as when my mother's South African friends (my mother, bless >> her, is somewhat to the right of Genghis Khan, and I never talk >> politics with her) would say that the Blacks were just inherently >> incapable of governing themselves, without heat, without any overt >> despite: just as a fact that everybody knows. >> >> xA >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Judy Prince >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> > My apologies, then, Alison; apparently I missed the part you had written >> > [which you give again below]. It's neither dull nor uninformative. >> > I still fail to see why mentioning a cannibal is racist, though. The >> quote >> > qualifies, I suppose, mildly, as what we used to call a 'sick' >> joke----but >> > 'racist'? Huh? What am I missing? >> > >> > Judy >> > >> > 2008/10/7 Alison Croggon <[log in to unmask]> >> > >> >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 12:48 AM, Judy Prince >> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > And further, If folks disagree with Fred's opinion, let them go ahead >> and >> >> > give theirs rather than 'red herring' us with 'isms'. If their >> opinion >> >> is >> >> > given as artfully as Fred has given his, then I'm sure it will receive >> >> due >> >> > attention. >> >> > >> >> I did, and without a whisper of ism anywhere. For the record, this is >> >> what I wrote, re the Larkin'Lauterbach comparison: >> >> >> >> It's a poem about the processes of >> >> perception and being, and certainly not written without feeling. I've >> >> read better poems along these lines, attempting to honestly delineate >> >> the complex ephemerality of a moment - Ashbery comes to mind and even >> >> more, Rilke - but I hardly think it's "really really really terrible", >> >> nor does it strike me as that breathy kind of fake poetic Frederick >> >> claims it demonstrates. It strikes me that while Lauterbach's poem is >> >> about entering the specifics of a moment (eternity perhaps in >> >> Spinoza's sense, ie some kind of immanence), Larkin's is about >> >> transcendence, the absorption into a sublime whole. Totally different >> >> poetic consciousnesses. Not sure that it's useful to use one to bash >> >> the other. >> >> >> >> Perhaps it was a dull and uninformative post, but it did, at least, >> >> talk about the poem. >> >> >> >> > Still further, and for Alison, the cannibal and ventilator quotes that >> >> > Kasper contributed are neither racist nor sexist---though perhaps >> >> > animalist---and they're hilarious. >> >> > >> >> Shorn of its context, which might perhaps be mitigating, the cannibal >> >> quote is most certainly racist, if being racist is a term meaning >> >> expressive of a racist attitude. It's the kind of thing I used to hear >> >> from my mother's associates who campaigned for Apartheid. If it's >> >> funny (I can't see how) that doesn't exclude it being racist. >> >> >> >> xA >> >> > Best, >> >> > >> >> > Judy >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > 2008/10/7 Frederick Pollack <[log in to unmask]> >> >> > >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alison Croggon" < >> >> [log in to unmask]> >> >> >> To: <[log in to unmask]> >> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2008 8:23 AM >> >> >> Subject: Re: 2 poems >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> You know, the funny thing is that I could let Frederick's obvious >> >> >>> sexism go by without a ruffle (and it's not for me to arbitrate, >> >> >>> anyway) - but Kasper, this is a horrible and utterly racist >> quotation. >> >> >>> And damn the accusations of PC, which are often just lazy defences >> of >> >> >>> lazy bigotries. >> >> >>> >> >> >>> >> >> >> For the record, I absolutely deny sexism, "obvious" or otherwise. >> >> >> Including "sexist" intent in my original phrase "meaty masterpiece." >> >> The >> >> >> kind of reasoning Barry Alpert showed in a) calling ME sexist because >> >> that >> >> >> phrase struck HIM as sexist, as well as b) intimating that La >> Auerbach >> >> is >> >> >> beyond attack because she has garnered po-biz and academic honors, is >> >> not to >> >> >> be tolerated. But the bleating of a herd of PC-liberals is as little >> >> >> susceptible to argument as a swarm of rightists. I will NOT get into >> an >> >> >> IDIOTIC pseudo-controversy of this sort, which always results in >> someone >> >> >> leaving the list in a self-righteous huff. I'll just go back to my >> >> usual >> >> >> lurking state. >> >> >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >> >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >> >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >> >> >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au >> Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com >> Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com >> > -- Editor, Masthead: http://www.masthead.net.au Blog: http://theatrenotes.blogspot.com Home page: http://www.alisoncroggon.com