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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Andrew, This is hugely interesting, and your analogy of the "work to get an A" hugely clarifying. More later, because I still have questions. Thank you for taking the time to answer this so carefully. cecilia On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 3:06 PM, Andrew Larsen <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > Cecelia, > Let me preface my unpacking by saying that I don't specialize in > sacramental theology. I teacha course on the Crusades, so what I've got to > say is based on my reading of the documents, old course notes, and secondary > sources that I've dug into so that I can explain this to my students. I > don't know if the term 'contingent merit' was every actually applied to > indulgences. But as I read the material, that's how they're conceiving of > the issues. > High and late medieval theologians were interested in the distinction > between inherent and contingent qualities and events. For example, if I > hold out a rock and drop it, why does it fall? Is its fall an inherent > element of the rock (Aristotle would say yes), or is its fall contingent on > divine will (as Ockham would say)? For Ockham, even though rocks usually > fall when you drop them, God could one day decide that a particular rock > won't fall but rather fly up into the sky. So the property of dropping is > entirely contingent on God making the repeated choice for rocks to fall. > So let's move to sacramental theology, which was rapidly developing in > the 12th century, as the first several crusades were playing out. > Confession and penance were a long-established practice in the 11th > century, but the full theology of C&P had not be worked out by the time that > Urban triggers the First Crusade. Urban's indulgence is rooted in the > principle that penance has value because the actions assigned for penance > are inherently meritorious. It is inherently good to go on a pilgrimage. > The armed pilgrimage to Jerusalem that Urban calls for is such a difficult > action that the merit of doing it can apply to all penance a knight may have > to do. > Bernard of Clairvaux offers a very different approach. The action of > the pilgrimage is not of itself meritorious. It is meritorious because God > has decided, out of the goodness of his mercy, to treat the action as > meritorious. God does not owe us the waiver of *poena* contained in the > penitential pilgrimage. Rather, God chooses to put himself into a position > in which he can pretend to owe us the waiver of *poena*, so that we might > have a chance to gain grace. > To help my students, here's the analogy I use. If Urban II were > teaching my class, he would say that any student who did the hard work of > studying for the tests and managed to get all As would earn an A by their > own merit. On the other hand, if Bernard or Innocent III were teaching the > class, he would say that no student in the class can possibly earn an A > (none of them can read Latin, none of them know very much about the > subject). Rather, out of the goodness of his heart, Bernard says that he > will mercifully accept a certain level of coursework as getting an A, even > if it doesn't really merit that A. > Knights did not have a formally articulated duty to serve God by virtue > of being knights. They had a duty by virtue of being Christians, but > knighthood was not vassalage to God, although some 12th century churchmen > made arguments like that. > Hope this clarifies things > > Andrew E. Larsen > > > > On 9/9/08 11:12 AM, "Cecilia Gaposchkin" <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > Thank you to everyone who replied to my query. I had actually been reading > Maier's book, which is what prompted by question about how "buy outs" > actually worked in practice, and in the whole spiritual and actual economy > of crusade. And thanks to Jessalyn for the kind words. > > I would like to ask Andrew Larsen, whose post was fantastic, to tell me a > bit more about "contingently meritorious" indulgences. I suppose I'm not > quite clear on how this is theologically different from the preceding (and, > as you say, later) form. In a sense, wouldn't' all penance be meritorious > on God's favor? I understand this more as a theological refinement, than as > something whcih would then need to be back away from, so may be someone > (Andrew?) can unpack this more for me. I mean, I suppose that all "knights" > are supposed to fight for their lord out of fidelity, and I have always > understood that for the crusades this was no mere analogy but an actual > amplification of knighthood's obligation to the Lord. In that sense, it > cannot, I suppose, be penitential, and so it could then only be penitential > if God allowed it. > > I'd love clarification. > > Thanks thanks, to all. > cecilia > > > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 8:15 AM, Christopher Crockett <[log in to unmask]> > wrote: > > medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture > > From: Jessalynn Bird <[log in to unmask]> > > > Dear Cecilia, > > > Sorry for the delayed reply. What period was the vow redemption from? > (This > makes a big difference both in theory and in practice--as far as both can > be > surmised). > > > which is all that kept me from offering a definitive answer to the original > querry --all those late, Copy-Cat guys are of no interest to us Genuine > Second > Crusade People. > > > By the way, I just read your book on Louis IX with much interest. It is > absolutely magnificent! > > Gaposchkin, M. Cecilia. > The making of Saint Louis: kingship, sanctity, and crusade in the later > Middle > Ages. > Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2008. > 331 p. : ill., maps > > > yes, doesn't look too bad. > > one of those Fly-by-Night U.P.s, of course. > > c > > > >On Behalf Of Cecilia Gaposchkin > > > I have just been reading about the redemption of crusading vows. One > well > > documented case involving a nobleman's redemption involved his payment of > a > > sum of money great enough to fund one miles for one year to go to the > holy > > land. For this, the nobleman received his plenary indulgence. > > > > Can someone tell me about the said "miles" who would go in the nobleman's > > stead. Would he received the spiritual benefits of crusading? Would he > get > a > > plenary indulgence? Is this a kind of "two for one" deal? Or would the > sum > > for the redemption, so calculated, be actually sent to the curial war > chest, > > rather than actually fund a replacement crusader. > > > > Thoughts and knowledge will be appreciated. > > > > thanks > > cecilia > > > > ********************************************************************** To > > join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > leave > > medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report > problems > or > > to contact the list's owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our > > web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > > ********************************************************************** > > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > > to: [log in to unmask] > > To send a message to the list, address it to: > > [log in to unmask] > > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > > to: [log in to unmask] > > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > > [log in to unmask] > > For further information, visit our web site: > > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > > ********************************************************************** > To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME > to: [log in to unmask] > To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] > To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion > to: [log in to unmask] > In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] > For further information, visit our web site: > http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > > ********************************************************************** To > join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: > [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: > [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: > leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report > problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: > [log in to unmask] For further information, visit > our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html