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To Ian and Harvey, (and Nick and Alan)
Harvey:
Many many thanks for such a thorough and speedy reply.
My interest in asking these questions is to relate the answers to my concepts of strategic thinking and planning - as the process of adjusting the 'inner with the outer' - the self with the world - in the process of growth towards a goal. (Individual self and/or corporate self). Your comments have therefore been most useful. Again -thank you.
(Influence: Pierre Teilhard De Chardin. Phenomenon of Man)
Could you point me in the direction of the articles you have written? I will look up the other writers you mention.
Would you agree with Marx and Hegel that history has been nothing more than the transformation of the sense of self - consciousness of spirit in Hegel's words?? That it is our changing sense of self, communally and individually, that creates external change? We choose what we want to know and what technologies we want to create from the many possible options on the basis of the 'fit' between our 'sense of selves' and the world? Our technologies, knowledge etc. therefore reflect our beliefs. Eg The Chinese rejection of all exploration and sea voyages. Japanese insularity. Islamic rejection of science and commerce. (David Landes: Wealth and Poverty of Nations. I can give further details of dates etc. if these are of interest - but I need to look them up)
'The history of the world is none other than the progress of the consciousness of spirit': Georg Hegel --Phenomenology of Spirit
Can we therefore take the leap to saying that it is our beliefs (at best - wisdom - driven by who we ARE) that dictate what we choose to know and what we choose to create? Who we ARE is the driver of the carriage - the knowledge and the technologies are the horses (Plato – Phaedrus)?
To Ian:
Thank you too for your time and reassurance - much appreciated! I have been working on my own with all of these issues for many years and am all too aware that I could have grasped the principles incorrectly. It is great to be able to bounce ideas around with great minds as yours are.
I have a copy of David Deutsch’s book on the nature of reality. I will look at it again but I felt that, of the many books I have read, it seemed to be the least helpful. Perhaps I am missing something. I do agree with you re Ken Wilbur. I find him rather over the top. I also don’t find his theories completely convincing. He does have a big following though so he cannot be discounted. I prefer to go back to the wisdom literature for guidance. Alan’s idea of Inclusionality seems to be nearer the mark. We do seem to be coming closer to an integrated concept. Finding a word to describe it is difficult. I have called it simply ‘The Way’. Is wisdom ‘knowing the way’ forward?
I will confess that I have created a model that seems to make sense of all of these issues. I am not revealing it just yet as I hope to get it validated and attributed to myself first. It seems too simple to be accurate and yet I have tested it many times and it works. It is based on ancient wisdom from all of the world’s cultures and deals with the issues of dualism, the self, balance and harmony and energy – the divine spark. It took me years to get all of the pieces together and as you can gather from my comments, I am still not entirely sure of all of them.
I look forward to your comments
Best wishes
Cherryl
-----Original Message-----
From: Group concerned that academia should seek and promote wisdom [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Harvey Sarles
Sent: 25 May 2006 8:49 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: Science and Wisdom-InquiryCherryl,
My ideas derive from observation of the human: we do not exist
primarily as individual bodies - we are in-interaction with our m/
others (she who takes responsibility for our being, for quite a long
and intense period.). The ordinary idea of our being, is that the
individual self is continuous with the individual/born. Following
from this is the notion that knowledge, the self, derive from this
being/experience. Sociality is a later development in our lives.
The way-we-are is apparently different from this (G.H. Mead, mostly,
but also Peirce and Dewey): the born-individual "joins" its m/other
(effectively) for quite a few months, and is "transformed" in this
relationship - eventually "emerges" as a self, the I which knows the
world, language, etc. We are not self-organizing, as a given, but are
in continuous interaction with others, thence the world.
I have developed several ideas/principles, using Mead's ideas -
which, incidentally, have been taken into much of Child Development,
called "Attachment Theory":
1. the (born) individual does not survive without the relationship/
interactions with its m/other.
2. the time of the infant is much "longer" than it is later (consider
how increasingly "fast" time moves as we age.
3. the space of the child is directed mainly to its m/other's face
(facial movement of eyes and mouth, mainly). Brogdinagean to begin,
reducing later.
This is not to say that we aren't very good at observations,
"removal," objectivity, etc. But this is active in our being, and how
we go about this is no simple matter. How we reflect or describe the
world are questions which need to be asked in this time: is this
discussion of "certain" knowledge more "about" the world, or more
"about" our being: how.
We have, since Aristotle at least, presumed that the physical is
primary, that the mind is me ta physics. This is what we have to
rethink: begin to observe the infant meeting its parents for the
first time, and observe what m/other is doing with her infant. How
this might reflect our current thinking: good question.
Harvey
On May 25, 2006, at 12:48 PM, Cherryl Martin wrote:
>
> Dear Nick, Karl, Alan, Harvey et al,
>
> I feel like a small child daring to speak to the Emperor by
> commenting on
> the current erudite discussion and asking some very simple
> questions. Excuse
> me if I appear naïve or misguided. I am genuinely seeking answers -
> not
> challenging anyone or trying to show off my knowledge.
>
> My points are:
>
> 1. To Alan: Thank you for your excellent communications gratefully
> received.
> I have not commented earlier, thereby contributing to the deafening
> silence,
> because I felt I had nothing to add as I am in complete agreement,
> having
> visited your website and read your articles. I think you are
> talking about a
> concept I have had difficulty putting a name to - one I have called
> 'Seeing
> the One' or 'One Pointedness'- gleaned from ancient wisdom
> literature and
> religion.
>
> I have attached a file containing an article by Ken Wilber who
> speaks of
> Integral Spirituality. Are you and he talking on the same lines?
>
> 2. To Nick: Am I wrong in thinking that science is a methodology and
> technology is the output of that methodology - created using our
> energies
> combined with our knowledge and skills? As I have reasoned,
> technology is
> therefore the tangible creation of science - merely a tool for
> life, just as
> knowledge is a tool - both being the products of our life
> experiences that
> have gradually become more refined and sophisticated as our
> knowledge and
> experience has increased over the millennia - starting with our cave
> ancestors? Does systems thinking throw any light on the interaction
> between
> the tangible and the intangible? The means and the ends?
>
> 3: To Harvey: Are you describing self-organising systems? (Ilya
> Prigogine)
>
> 4: To All: I have found the books by Fritjof Capra very helpful in my
> attempts to understand all of these complex phenomena. The one I
> recommend
> to this group is 'Uncommon Wisdom' 'Conversations with Remarkable
> People'.
> The Turning Point and The Web of Life are also good, as of course
> if his
> most popular book, 'The Tao of Physics'. They document his thinking
> over a
> number of years - generally before the concepts gained popular
> acceptance.
>
> I look forward to your responses.
>
> Many thanks
>
> Cherryl
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Group concerned that academia should seek and promote wisdom
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Harvey Sarles
> Sent: 25 May 2006 4:28 PM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: Science and Wisdom-Inquiry
>
> Ian, Alan, et al,
>
> I'm a bit out of the conceptual loop - an anthropologist now in the
> Humanities - but note that there are some current wonderments and
> worries about the nature of certainty" in the world, and in our
> thinking about it. I suggest including a relooking at the human, and
> rethinking about the basis of our rationality. (I have no doubt that
> we are quite good at being rational, but the bases of how we are and
> think rests mostly with Plato-Aristotle, and is very dualistic, and
> not a good accounting for how we are, and do, and know.)
>
> We are bodies in interaction with others' bodies: how we are or
> develop, better "emerge" as selves (Mead) may, I suggest re-place
> this conversation. I have many thoughts and work in this area, but
> realize how powerful, though narrow, are our notions of the rational
> deriving mostly from the idea that humans are unique due to language.
> We are much more interesting and complicated than that.
> Harvey
>
>
>
> Most
>
>
> On May 25, 2006, at 8:45 AM, ian glendinning wrote:
>
>> Hi Alan, persistence pays off,
>>
>> I overlooked your mails of 19th and 21st, amongst so many mailing
>> lists :-)
>>
>> Positive sounding though it is, the label "inclusional" doesn't jump
>> off the page as the alternative to (hyper)-rational that we're
>> looking
>> for, but your emphasis on the dynamic / living aspect of the fluid vs
>> fixed underlying view of reality is undoubtedly a key aspect of what
>> distinguishes wisdom from mere knowledge.
>>
>> I also think you're right about the "illusion" of solidity of real
>> world objects at the human scale (even though science is well
>> aware of
>> the ephemeral nature of things at the quantum scale). Your
>> "uncertainty at any scale" qualifier is important (without getting
>> into any quack quantum coherence debates). That illusion of objective
>> solidity vs ephemeral reality extends of course to causality itself,
>> and whilst looking for practical (teaching) advice concerning wisdom,
>> it seems impossible not to get drawn back to metaphysical questions.
>>
>> At the practical human scale, I often feel it is better simply to
>> remind ourselves (as you do) of this living "fluidity" (and recursive
>> complexity) rather than expect any analysis to bottom out the
>> philosophical enquiry and provide us with convenient "fixed"
>> foundations on which to build. (also part of what I call our Catch-22
>> - the best world models appear to be constructed on the flimsiest of
>> foundations, get used to it folks, at any scale.)
>>
>> Regards
>> Ian
>>
>>
>> On 5/25/06, A.D.M.Rayner <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Nick, Karl and all,
>>>
>>> I feel in close correspondence with what Karl is, I think, saying
>>> here about
>>> how its coupling with technology sustains orthodox science as a
>>> form of
>>> supernaturalism, alienated from natural process, in a manner that
>>> is alluded
>>> to in science fiction stories like 'Dr Who and the Cybermen'.
>>>
>>> I also feel close kinship with the view that the role of
>>> philosophy is to
>>> reveal and explore the implications of underlying assumptions,
>>> and, where
>>> these assumptions are found to be wanting in terms of their
>>> representation
>>> of natural process, to explore ways in which more representative
>>> premises
>>> could be developed. This is what I have been attempting in my
>>> teaching and
>>> research.
>>>
>>> Notwithstanding the deafening silence that has followed my recent
>>> communications with this forum, I continue to feel that there is a
>>> mutually
>>> beneficial connection to be made with my/our explorations of
>>> 'inclusionality'. So, perhaps against my better judgement, I am
>>> responding
>>> to what has been said in this thread.
>>>
>>> Yesterday, I thought of two very simple statements of the
>>> distinction
>>> between rationalistic and inclusional enquiry:
>>>
>>> 1. The logical premise of inclusional enquiry is that natural
>>> form is
>>> primarily fluid dynamic (space-including) and hence non-linear,
>>> continually
>>> transforming (simultaneously and reciprocally receptive and
>>> responsive), and
>>> not completely definable at any scale.
>>>
>>> 2. The logical premise of rationalistic enquiry is that natural
>>> form is
>>> primarily fixed (space-excluding) and hence linear and completely
>>> definable
>>> at any scale, so that change (action and reaction in sequential
>>> time) is
>>> dependent on the imposition
>>> of external force.
>>>
>>> So the question is: which logical premise and mode of enquiry
>>> makes sense
>>> of our full human experience and is actually supported by
>>> contemporary
>>> scientific
>>> evidence? And which ultimately makes nonsense and is supported
>>> only by
>>> belief in a
>>> visual illusion, self-sustained by technological development? And
>>> which
>>> includes space for emotional response in a dynamic (living) context?
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry to be so persistent.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Karl Rogers
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: 24 May 2006 22:04
>>> Subject: Re: Science and Wisdom-Inquiry
>>>
>>> Dear Nick,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your response. Much appreciated.
>>>
>>> In my view, you are right to sidestep what has now become
>>> something of a
>>> 'chicken-or-egg' debate about "whether technology emerges from
>>> science, or
>>> develops independently, or actually contributes to science".
>>> Indeed, as you
>>> said in your email, "as far as modern science is concerned,
>>> science and
>>> technology developed in tandem with each other, each contributing
>>> to the
>>> development of the other". Outside the cloisters of the traditional
>>> philosophy of science, this is actually an uncontentious
>>> statement. A large
>>> body of historical research supports it and most working
>>> scientists would
>>> agree with it.
>>>
>>> However, this should be unsurprising. If we closely examine the
>>> object of
>>> scientific experimentation then we see that it is not actually a
>>> natural
>>> phenomenon, but, instead, is a set of machine performance placed
>>> under
>>> theoretical description. Modern science is actually notoriously
>>> bad at
>>> describing natural phenomena in the world, such as thunder and
>>> lightning
>>> storms, for example, but is highly successful in predicting how
>>> specific
>>> kinds of machines perform, such as electromagnets and circuits.
>>>
>>> The predictive success of modern physics is very much limited to
>>> predicting
>>> how machines perform (even the predictive power of observational
>>> astronomy
>>> is very limited and astrophysics is atrocious).
>>>
>>> Of course, the set of explanatory representations that are
>>> abstracted from
>>> this process of explaining how and why these machines work is
>>> used to
>>> explain how and why an associated natural phenomena happen, but its
>>> predictive success is limited to the technological sphere rather
>>> than the
>>> natural world. Scientists may well be able to explain away this
>>> failure by
>>> invoking 'complexity', but we may reasonably question whether they
>>> actually
>>> understand the natural phenomena at all because it has not be
>>> sufficiently
>>> demonstrated whether this set of fundamental representations
>>> actually
>>> corresponds to the natural phenomenon in question.
>>>
>>> As I argued in On The Metaphysics of Experimental Physics, it
>>> requires a set
>>> of metaphysical precepts in order to place these sets of fundamental
>>> representations of machine performances in correspondence to natural
>>> phenomena. Given that the 'empirical test' of this act of
>>> correspondence is
>>> the practical success of the so-called natural sciences in
>>> providing new
>>> machines and techniques we can see how the test is actually based
>>> upon a
>>> correspondence to the technological rather than the natural. To
>>> adopt a
>>> phenomenological posture about science, we may reasonably be
>>> sceptical about
>>> whether modern science provides us with knowledge about Nature at
>>> all, even
>>> if it provides us with increasingly powerful machine prototypes.
>>>
>>> To take your example of the steam engine and thermodynamics, while
>>> the
>>> former was developed through trial and error and the latter was an
>>> explanation of the former, a close examination of the field of
>>> thermodynamics shows that its fundamental representations – such
>>> as the
>>> Carnot Cycle – are abstractions of machine performances which are
>>> subsequently projected over natural phenomena in order to explain
>>> them in
>>> technological terms, while the ongoing research was directed to
>>> creating
>>> machine prototypes. Given that Nature has been understood in
>>> technological
>>> terms from onset and all tests of scientific representations are
>>> demonstrated by implementing them in further technological
>>> innovation, then
>>> it is not so much the case that science and technology each
>>> contributes to
>>> the development of the other, but it the case that scientific
>>> progress and
>>> technological progress are one and the same. The only distinction
>>> between
>>> scientific activity and technical activity is that the former
>>> explains the
>>> latter, which, in turn, shapes the trajectory and practices of the
>>> former.
>>>
>>> As you stated in your book The Comprehensibility of the Universe,
>>> physics is
>>> unintelligible, as a human pursuit, unless we examine the
>>> metaphysical
>>> assumptions that are required for evidence and theories to be
>>> comprehensible. Physics is only possible because of speculative
>>> metaphysical
>>> assumptions regarding the ultimate nature of the Universe; hence
>>> you argued
>>> that the role of philosophy of science is that of revealing these
>>> assumptions. Physicists need to make judgements about the ultimate
>>> nature of
>>> objective reality from a position of complete ignorance in order
>>> to begin
>>> the inquiry into the ultimate nature of objective reality. As you
>>> put it:
>>>
>>> "Metaphysics determines methodology. This makes it of paramount
>>> importance
>>> that a good basic metaphysical conjecture is adopted, one that
>>> corresponds
>>> to how the universe actually is. A bad metaphysical conjecture,
>>> hopelessly
>>> at odds with the actual nature of the Universe, will lead to the
>>> adoption of
>>> an entirely inappropriate set of methods, and the result will be
>>> failure,
>>> possibly, of a peculiarly persistent kind."
>>>
>>> In my view, the ten level hierarchy of metaphysical assumptions
>>> that you
>>> proposed in this book, concerning the comprehensibility of the
>>> Universe
>>> assumed by modern physics, was extremely insightful and important
>>> for the
>>> purpose of explicating and simplifying the assumptions implicit in
>>> current
>>> scientific methodology. However, my point of disagreement with
>>> you, in that
>>> book, is that you presumed that once we have arrived at indubitable
>>> assumptions (that can not be doubted without impeding the growth of
>>> knowledge) then we have a good reason to believe that we are
>>> nearing the
>>> truth. Please correct me if I have misunderstood you, but my
>>> point of
>>> contention with you is that you presumed that experimental
>>> physics is
>>> self-evidently successful at collecting the facts about natural
>>> phenomena.
>>> Hence, you started with "evidence" as the first level of your ten
>>> levels
>>> system.
>>>
>>> However, your system (as proposed in that book – I do not know
>>> whether you
>>> have revised it since it was published in 1998) does not provide
>>> us with an
>>> account of how "evidence" is selected and produced qua evidence in
>>> the first
>>> place. You did not provide us with any account of the operational
>>> metaphysics that underlies experimentation and the use of
>>> instruments and
>>> apparatus as a means of producing evidence about the Universe
>>> outside of the
>>> laboratory. While you offered us an intelligible and insightful
>>> system to
>>> evaluate principles of simplicity and comprehensibility, which
>>> nicely
>>> explicate the speculative metaphysical assumptions used to interpret
>>> "evidence", in my terms, your system presupposes mechanical
>>> realism as its
>>> underlying operational metaphysics. This is presupposition is
>>> necessary for
>>> the disclosure of a level one of "evidence" on the basis of
>>> experiments
>>> using machines to explore the natural world. It is an implicit
>>> "level zero"
>>> that allows experiments upon machines to be presented as
>>> disclosures of
>>> natural mechanisms, which are then used to explain the "evidence"
>>> that has
>>> been collected by using technologies.
>>>
>>> Therefore, it is not simply the case that "as we improve our
>>> knowledge, we
>>> improve our methods for improving knowledge, that is, we improve
>>> knowledge
>>> about how to improve knowledge", because the whole scientific
>>> revolution
>>> transformed what constituted knowledge in the first place. Since the
>>> sixteenth century, knowledge about Nature and knowledge about
>>> technology
>>> have become one and the same kind of knowledge. It has become a
>>> closed
>>> circle where only technical knowledge can be considered to be
>>> rational
>>> because only that which can be tested in technological terms can be
>>> considered to be scientific. Rationality has become reduced to the
>>> form of a
>>> bounded technical rationality and represented as scientific
>>> rationality.
>>>
>>> Hence, my position regarding science is much more critical than you
>>> realised. I do not accept the scientific realist interpretation of
>>> the
>>> experimental sciences. Nor do I affirm the societal gamble in
>>> favour of an
>>> artificial world as an improvement over the natural world. In
>>> Modern Science
>>> and the Capriciousness of Nature, I am very critical it and place
>>> the
>>> rationality of the whole technoscientific project into question by
>>> questioning the understanding of rationality presupposed by the
>>> project. For
>>> reasons you have stated, the impending threat of global warming
>>> (and still
>>> looming threat of nuclear and biological warfare), as well as the
>>> destructive nature of cultural and economic globalisation, makes
>>> me very
>>> much aware of the contradictions in this whole project, and, in my
>>> book, I
>>> analyse the sources of those contradictions in depth, as well as
>>> criticise
>>> its fundamental totalitarianism.
>>>
>>> While I wholeheartedly agree with your point, as expressed in From
>>> Knowledge
>>> to Wisdom, that if scientific knowledge is to be intelligible we
>>> must not
>>> forget what kind of being – namely human beings – for which it is
>>> knowledge
>>> for, and, hence, knowledge must be related to our understanding of
>>> goodness
>>> (i.e. what is good for us), I think that we need to pay close to
>>> how human
>>> being and our understanding of goodness has been transformed since
>>> the
>>> scientific revolution.
>>>
>>> Human being has become increasingly represented in terms of
>>> technological
>>> being (where even human physiology, evolution, and social
>>> development are
>>> understood in technological terms) and the modern of goodness is
>>> very much
>>> bound up with technological power and control. The human relation
>>> with the
>>> world (including each other) has become increasingly defined in
>>> terms of
>>> cognitive and manipulative intervention and control. Thus social
>>> science
>>> models itself on experimental natural science, while legitimating
>>> that model
>>> upon a positivistic interpretation of technique as being value-
>>> neutral.
>>>
>>> Of course, the positivistic interpretation of scientific progress,
>>> in terms
>>> of increased technical specialisation, is irrational, but I think
>>> that more
>>> reflective modern scientists already adopt a form of "aim-orientated
>>> empiricism", but they radically disagree with you about what the
>>> aims of
>>> science should be.
>>>
>>> While I admit that I have not read your book, Is Science
>>> Neurotic?, from
>>> what I have read about it I am sure that I would find many
>>> important points
>>> of agreement and learn much from it.
>>>
>>> I already completely agree with your call for a thorough critical
>>> investigation into the assumptions of science.
>>>
>>> However, I think that it is crucial to closely examine that,
>>> except for the
>>> unthinking positivist, science is already deeply implicated in the
>>> project
>>> of constructing a "brave new world" and the unthinking positivist
>>> is simply
>>> a technician in that project. Hence, we need to direct our
>>> criticism to the
>>> assumptions that underlie the aims and ideals of this whole
>>> techoscientific
>>> project because these aims and ideals already exist and are
>>> operational in
>>> the technocratic development of public policy.
>>>
>>> It is important to realise that there is a fundamental
>>> disagreement at play
>>> about what is of value, hence, due to the fundamental inequalities
>>> of the
>>> political economy, the values and goods of a social elite who fund
>>> technoscience are placed over an above the values and goods of the
>>> rest of
>>> us. The representations of rationality and goodness have an
>>> underlying
>>> political, economic class-structure. It is for this reason that,
>>> in both
>>> Modern Science and the Capriciousness of Nature and my current
>>> work, I
>>> advocate that the task of critical philosophy is to raise
>>> fundamental
>>> questions regarding whether our current society is truly
>>> egalitarian,
>>> pluralistic, and democratic, and how we can make society more
>>> egalitarian,
>>> pluralistic, and democratic.
>>>
>>> While we need to focus on the articulation of our shared values
>>> and ideals,
>>> we also need to be aware of the structures and institutions that
>>> exist to
>>> suppress them. In my view, these structures and institutions are
>>> operational
>>> in current academia and education, as part of silencing all
>>> resistance and
>>> opposition, as well as providing the means to produce a skilled
>>> workforce
>>> and managers in accordance with the dictates of the social elite.
>>> Academia
>>> is a servant of political economy.
>>>
>>> As far as I am concerned, I wholeheartedly agree with your call for
>>> aim-orientated rationality. It seems to me that critical attention
>>> to aims
>>> is an essential part of rationality to the extent that without an
>>> ongoing
>>> critical reflection upon our aims and how they relate to our
>>> actions, we
>>> cannot be considered to be rational at all.
>>>
>>> But, it is fundamentally important, once if we accept that we are
>>> friends of
>>> wisdom (philosophers) rather than possessors of it (sages), that
>>> we remain
>>> pluralistic about aims, as well as means.
>>>
>>> Thank you for your patience in reading this far and thank you for
>>> setting up
>>> this forum.
>>>
>>> All the best,Karl
>>>
>>> Nicholas Maxwell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> Dear Karl,
>>>
>>> I agree with what you say about technological
>>> innovation and
>>> the development of new scientific instruments. That technological
>>> developments can make major contributions to scientific progress is
>>> something that I have stressed too, in my writings. It is
>>> integral to the
>>> basic idea of aim-oriented empiricism, namely that, as we improve
>>> our
>>> knowledge, we improve our methods for improving knowledge, that
>>> is, we
>>> improve knowledge about how to improve knowledge. New technology
>>> may lead
>>> the way. As I say in my paper "Can Humanity Learn to Become
>>> Civilized"
>>> (http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001709/) "There
>>> is a long-standing debate as to whether technology emerges from
>>> science, or
>>> develops independently, or actually contributes to science (as in
>>> the case
>>> of the steam engine leading to the development of
>>> thermodynamics). I
>>> sidestep this debate, here, and assume, merely that, as far as
>>> modern
>>> science is concerned, science and technology developed in tandem
>>> with each
>>> other, each contributing to the development of the other."
>>>
>>> Concerning your more general point, that modern
>>> science "is
>>> implicitly based upon visions of the ideal society, an artificial
>>> world
>>> within which human being are free from the capriciousness of
>>> Nature", this
>>> is a danger, although I would have thought that the impending
>>> threat of
>>> global warming has made all of us aware, including those inclined
>>> to think
>>> along the lines you indicate, that it is not so easy to create a
>>> safe
>>> artificial world free of the capriciousness of Nature. In my "From
>>> Knowledge to Wisdom", incidentally, one of my criticisms of social
>>> science
>>> was its tendency to carry over from the natural sciences the idea
>>> that new
>>> knowledge enables one to manipulate what one has knowledge of.
>>> Manipulating
>>> inanimate matter, to create dams, aeroplanes, power stations,
>>> etc., may have
>>> its initially unforeseen undesirable consequences. Manipulating
>>> people via
>>> the application of social science, in advertising and spin for
>>> example, is a
>>> quite different matter. (Within wisdom-inquiry, social inquiry
>>> is, not
>>> science primarily, but rather social methodology, concerned to
>>> promote
>>> increasingly cooperative tackling of problems of living by means of
>>> aim-oriented rationality.)
>>>
>>> In "Is Science Neurotic?" I argue that science is
>>> indeed
>>> neurotic. It suffers, that is, from what I call "rationalistic
>>> neurosis", a
>>> methodological condition that involves suppressing, or failing to
>>> acknowledge, real, problematic aims, and instead acknowledging an
>>> apparently
>>> unproblematic "false" aim. Rationalistic neurosis inevitably has
>>> bad
>>> consequences. The more rationally the false aim is pursued, the
>>> worse off
>>> one is from the standpoint of achieving one's real aim. Reason
>>> seems to
>>> become counterproductive. Furthermore, as a result of suppressing
>>> the real
>>> aims, the problems associated with these aims cannot be tackled
>>> and solved.
>>> In my book I show how science - and we - suffer from all these
>>> adverse
>>> consequences of the rationalistic neurosis of science. The real
>>> aims of
>>> science make problematic assumptions concerning metaphysics,
>>> values and
>>> politics. What you have identified in your book - the aim of
>>> creating a
>>> safe artificial world for us to live in - is just the sort of
>>> problematic
>>> aim that can lurk within the scientific enterprise unacknowledged
>>> and
>>> unexamined, because of the current neurosis of science. Hence the
>>> urgent
>>> need to transform science so that it explicitly acknowledges its
>>> real,
>>> problematic aims and begins to tackle the problems associated with
>>> its aims.
>>> Aim-oriented empiricism - the philosophy of science I argue for
>>> - is
>>> designed precisely to encourage and facilitate such sustained
>>> imaginative
>>> and critical scrutiny of problematic aims. And its generalization -
>>> aim-oriented rationality - is designed to facilitate such
>>> sustained and
>>> critical scrutiny of problematic aims in all other contexts where
>>> worthwhile
>>> aims are problematic - in politics, industry, education, the law,
>>> the media,
>>> international relations, one's own individual life. Aim-oriented
>>> rationality is designed to help us, in increasingly cooperative
>>> ways,
>>> realize what is of value to us - what is genuinely of value often
>>> being
>>> problematic.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>>
>>> Nick
>>>
>>> ps I think I agree, too, with what you said about the need for
>>> pluralism in
>>> an earlier email. I would only add that we need aim-oriented
>>> rationality as
>>> well. As a result of requiring us to represent our problematic aims
>>> (ideals, values) in a hierarchy, the aims becoming less specific
>>> and less
>>> problematic as one goes up the hierarchy, we can disentangle what
>>> we agree
>>> about from what we disagree about. We create a framework of
>>> relatively
>>> unproblematic, agreed aims within which diverse more specific,
>>> problematic
>>> aims and methods can be tried out, explored and assessed. Aim-
>>> oriented
>>> rationalism is specifically designed to help us improve aims-and-
>>> methods
>>> (policies, philosophies, political programmes, even religious
>>> views) as we
>>> live; and it is designed to help us resolve conflicts in
>>> increasingly
>>> cooperative ways. In a recent article, "Do Philosophers Love
>>> Wisdom?"
>>> (http://www.philosophersnet.com/magazine/article.php?id=670)
>>> I remarked, quoting from "From Knowledge to Wisdom", that aim-
>>> oriented
>>> rationality:-
>>>
>>> "provides a framework within which diverse philosophies of value –
>>> diverse
>>> religions, political and moral views – may be cooperatively
>>> assessed and
>>> tested against the experience of personal and social life. There
>>> is the
>>> possibility of cooperatively and progressively improving such
>>> philosophies
>>> of life (views about what is of value in life and how it is to be
>>> achieved)
>>> much as theories are cooperatively and progressively improved in
>>> science.
>>> In science diverse universal theories are critically assessed with
>>> respect
>>> to each other, and with respect to experience (observational and
>>> experimental results). In a somewhat analogous way, diverse
>>> philosophies of
>>> life may be critically assessed with respect to each other, and
>>> with respect
>>> to experience – what we do, achieve, fail to achieve, enjoy and
>>> suffer – the
>>> aim being so to improve philosophies of life (and more specific
>>> philosophies
>>> of more specific enterprises within life such as government,
>>> education or
>>> art) that they offer greater help with the realization of value in
>>> life"
>>> (From Knowledge to Wisdom, p. 254).
>>>
>>> This presupposes, of course, that science puts aim-oriented
>>> empiricism into
>>> practice, something it does not, at present, do (or only very
>>> imperfectly,
>>> and not in an explicit, conscious fashion).
>>>
>>> www.nick-maxwell.demon.co.uk
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Karl Rogers
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:56 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Science and Wisdom-Inquiry
>>>
>>> Dear Nick,
>>>
>>> Even though it epistemologically grounds itself in experimental
>>> results, the
>>> empricist philosophy of science is flawed because it presupposes
>>> explanatory
>>> accounts of how experimental apparatus and instruments work in
>>> order to
>>> obtain the results in the first place. At basic levels, empiricism
>>> presupposes scientific realist interpretations of the experiment
>>> in terms of
>>> causal accounts of how the experiment works.
>>>
>>> Scientific realist and positivistic philosophies of science have
>>> both
>>> presupposed the same operational metaphysics: that natural
>>> phenomena and
>>> machine performances are consequences of the same natural
>>> principles, laws,
>>> and mechanisms.
>>>
>>> This metaphysics allows the ongoing technological activities of
>>> experimentation to disclose natural phenomena in terms of
>>> mechanistic models
>>> that are tested by their implementation in future technological
>>> innovation.
>>>
>>> Hence, both empiricists and realists appeal to the practical
>>> value of
>>> science in terms of its technological successes when arguing for the
>>> epistemological validity of the so-called natural sciences, such
>>> as physics,
>>> chemistry, and genetics.
>>>
>>> However, the tradition within the philosophy of science is to
>>> completely
>>> neglect the role of technology in the development of theories and
>>> observations within experimental sciences. The traditional view of
>>> the use
>>> of scientific instruments, such as telescopes and microscopes, is
>>> that they
>>> are designed to increase our perceptual possibilities and see what
>>> is "out
>>> there". The use of detectors, such as X-ray scanners, electron
>>> microscopes,
>>> and the Geiger counter has supposedly allowed us to understand
>>> phenomena in
>>> the visible world in terms of otherwise invisible entities. The
>>> practical
>>> value of such instruments clearly "proves" that science has made
>>> considerable advances and progressed. The traditional view is that
>>> technology has no further relevance to the philosophy of science.
>>>
>>> However, as I argue in my book On The Metaphysics of Experimental
>>> Physics,
>>> technological innovation has not only made new observations and
>>> experiments
>>> possible, but it has also transformed our experience and
>>> conception of
>>> reality. Using a microscope or a Geiger counter does not merely
>>> involve
>>> seeing or detecting what is there. One must interpret the
>>> behaviour of the
>>> instrument in terms of an understanding of how it works. Making
>>> observations
>>> using novel instruments is bound up with making novel techniques of
>>> representing what one sees and how the instrument works. These
>>> techniques
>>> are ordered into procedures and operations within a technological
>>> framework
>>> that orders how we use and understand instruments. These
>>> instruments did not
>>> fall from the sky ready-made with an instruction book. They were
>>> innovated
>>> as a result of complex labour processes and protracted efforts
>>> against a
>>> historical background of expectations, challenges, demands, and
>>> the results
>>> of previous research and technological innovation.
>>>
>>> Technological innovation makes new research, observations, and
>>> representations possible; it also brings with it new challenges to
>>> achieve
>>> the anticipated possibilities of future innovation and
>>> investigation. New
>>> technologies create observational possibilities and conceptions of
>>> the
>>> criteria for the possibility of possessing knowledge of natural
>>> laws and
>>> mechanisms. They produce new phenomena, data, and change how we
>>> understand
>>> the world. The history of physics shows that technological
>>> innovation has
>>> changed conceptions of Nature and knowledge considerably in the
>>> experimental
>>> sciences. It is just as much a history of the innovation of new
>>> machines,
>>> instruments, and techniques, as it is a history of ideas,
>>> theories, and
>>> discoveries.
>>>
>>> By examining the ways that the world, and the interactions between
>>> beings in
>>> the world, have been understood and communicated by physicists in
>>> terms of a
>>> technological framework of innovative technological objects, it is
>>> evident
>>> that observations and experiences emerge from within a technological
>>> framework in which technological objects obtain agency through
>>> interaction
>>> with each other. The meaning of agency is closely connected to its
>>> context
>>> of emergence and cannot be divorced from the purposes it was
>>> intended to
>>> satisfy. Observation is an activity within a technological
>>> framework of
>>> interventions, interpretations, expectations, possibilities, and
>>> purposes.
>>>
>>> The artifice in designing, building, using, and interpreting novel
>>> technological instruments to make observations through
>>> interventions is a
>>> particularly important feature of the novel dimension of scientific
>>> discovery in experimental physics. It allows the technological
>>> objects
>>> within experiments to acquire an agency of their own and become
>>> autonomous
>>> as the means to innovate and disseminate new experiences,
>>> techniques, and
>>> instruments. It is this autonomy that allows techniques and
>>> instruments to
>>> be metaphysically understood and represented as the means to
>>> experience and
>>> explain the facts of the natural world. It is this autonomy that
>>> allows both
>>> empricist and realist interpretations of the experimental sciences
>>> to be
>>> possible.
>>>
>>> Hence, once we take the centrality of technological innovation
>>> into account,
>>> then we can see how the experimental sciences, from their onset in
>>> the
>>> sixteenth century, have been bound together with the civic,
>>> military, and
>>> commercial ambitions of those who fund the research. Once we
>>> examine how
>>> modern science has transformed our understanding and
>>> representations of
>>> Nature into something technological, in order to transform natural
>>> phenomena
>>> into technological object available for experimental
>>> investigation, and also
>>> transform theories into forms that translate into technological
>>> functions,
>>> then we can see how the totality of experimental science is
>>> completely
>>> directed to understand the world in technological terms. Modern
>>> science is
>>> implicated in the construction of a technological society which
>>> promises to
>>> improve upon our natural state by providing us with greater power,
>>> certainty, and control.
>>>
>>> In my book, Modern Science and the Capriciousness of Nature, I
>>> describe how
>>> this societal gamble is premised upon the presupposition of
>>> specific forms
>>> of the goodness and rationality of science. Modern science is
>>> implictly
>>> based upon visions of the ideal society, an artificial world
>>> within which
>>> human beings are free from the capriciousness of Nature (such as
>>> natural
>>> disasters, disease, premature death, birth defects, etc.), and it is
>>> implicitly placed in confrontation with Nature. Modern science is
>>> directed
>>> to the pacification of the natural world, transforming it into a
>>> "better"
>>> artificial world, and it finds its meaning and value in terms of its
>>> function within the societal project of constructing this
>>> technological
>>> society.
>>>
>>> Thus, in my opinion, it is more the case that we need to question
>>> the wisdom
>>> of this societal gamble and the vision of the ideal world upon it is
>>> premised. Would such a world be actually good for humanity? Or is
>>> it only
>>> good for a social elite? And where such a vision is lacking, then
>>> we need to
>>> question the rationality of the whole societal project of
>>> constructing the
>>> technological society and the vision of goodness (given in terms
>>> of power,
>>> certainty, and control over our material conditions) that it
>>> presupposes. It
>>> may well be the case that the positivistic interpretation of
>>> science is
>>> nothing more than an irrational, unthinking mode of conformity to
>>> the
>>> societal project of constructing a technological society.
>>>
>>> best regards,
>>> Karl
>>>
>>> Nicholas Maxwell <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>> Dear Bob,
>>>
>>> A part of what's wrong with science, in my view,
>>> is that the
>>> scientific community takes for granted an untenable view about
>>> what the aims
>>> and methods of science ought to be, which I have called "standard
>>> empiricism". According to standard empiricism, the basic
>>> intellectual aim
>>> of science is to improve knowledge of truth, the basic method
>>> being to
>>> assess claims to knowledge impartially with respect to evidence.
>>> But this
>>> seriously misrepresents the aims of science. Science both does,
>>> and ought
>>> to, seek explanatory truth (truth presupposed to be explanatory).
>>> More
>>> generally, science seeks truth deemed to be important or of value,
>>> in one
>>> way or another. There are, I have argued, problematic assumptions
>>> concerning metaphysics, values and politics inherent in the real
>>> aims of
>>> science which standard empiricism fails to acknowledge. The
>>> result of this
>>> orthodox misrepresentation of the actual aims of science is that
>>> science
>>> fails to subject the problematic assumptions associated with these
>>> aims to
>>> sustained critical scrutiny, in an attempt to improve them. And
>>> that in
>>> turn means that science fails to pursue aims in our best
>>> interests. (One
>>> has to remember that something like a third of all public funds
>>> devoted to
>>> research and development is devoted to military research. Is this
>>> really in
>>> our best interests?) We need a new conception of science - which
>>> I have
>>> called "aim-oriented empiricism" - which acknowledges the real,
>>> problematic
>>> aims of science, and requires science to represent its aims in the
>>> form of a
>>> hierarchy, the aims becoming less and less specific as one goes up
>>> the
>>> hierarchy, and so less and less problematic, in this way a
>>> framework of more
>>> or less unproblematic aims and methods being created (high up in the
>>> hierarchy) within which much more specific and problematic aims
>>> and methods
>>> (low down in the hierarchy) and be critically assessed and
>>> improved. For
>>> the detailed argument see my "Is Science Neurotic?" (2004); see
>>> also my "Can
>>> Humanity Learn to become Civilized?"
>>> (http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001709/) and
>>> "The Need for a Revolution in the Philosophy of Science",
>>> (http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00002449/).
>>>
>>> This aim-oriented empiricist conception of the
>>> progress-achieving methods of science can be generalized to form an
>>> aim-oriented conception of rationality: whenever we are engaged in
>>> some
>>> worthwhile endeavour with problematic aims, we need to represent
>>> these aims
>>> in the form of such a hierarchy, so that we can improve specific,
>>> problematic aims and methods as we proceed. This aim-oriented
>>> conception of
>>> rationality is especially relevant when it comes to the endeavour
>>> to make
>>> progress towards a good, civilized, wise world - an aim that is
>>> inherently
>>> profoundly problematic.
>>>
>>> But the above is only the first step of my
>>> argument. It is
>>> not just science that needs to change, but even more important,
>>> the whole
>>> academic enterprise. We need, I have argued, a new kind of
>>> academic inquiry
>>> that takes as its basic aim to help humanity to realize what is of
>>> value in
>>> life. Academic inquiry needs itself to put aim-oriented
>>> rationality into
>>> practice, and needs to help humanity put it into practice in the
>>> rest of
>>> personal, institutional and social life. The argument is spelled
>>> out in
>>> some detail in my "From Knowledge to Wisdom" (Blackwell, 1984),
>>> and in my
>>> more recent "Is Science Neurotic?". For a summary see the article
>>> referred
>>> to above, "Can Humanity Learn to Become Civilized?"
>>> (http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00001709/ , first
>>> published in Journal of Applied Philosophy 17, 2000, 29-44).
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Nick
>>> www.nick-maxwell.demon.co.uk
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Isabel Adonis
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 10:37 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Wisdom and its definition
>>>
>>> Dear Nicholas,
>>> Are you saying that what's wrong with science is that it cannot
>>> deal with
>>> values? That is not a fault, merely a limitation, and one which is
>>> necessary
>>> to the (limited) success that it has. Take the field of medicine;
>>> there are
>>> overarching values which define and limit what is permissible in
>>> the pursuit
>>> of medical knowledge. Then there are the standards and values of
>>> good
>>> science which aim to produce reliable knowledge. And then there
>>> are the
>>> values of the doctor in the application of that knowledge to benefit
>>> patients. So a scientist evaluating a treatment needs to take
>>> steps to allow
>>> for and discount the placebo effect in order to arrive at reliable
>>> knowledge, but the practicioner may find that this is is the most
>>> effective
>>> part of the treatment. The fact/ value split is the very
>>> foundation of
>>> science, but science is merely a tool - the tool of tools perhaps
>>> - it can
>>> never be a guide to life. It has its own internal values and has
>>> value to
>>> humanity, but it does not deal with values; yet it takes a place
>>> in the
>>> heirarchy of values as any medical ethics committee will attest.
>>> But this is an idealised account. Doctors, scientists, and perhaps
>>> even
>>> friends of wisdom are not motivated solely by love of humanity,
>>> but also,
>>> and oten more, by desire for money, status, power, respect and
>>> particularly
>>> self-respect. I would like to say that I am not like this, but
>>> rationally I
>>> know that I am, though for much of the time I prefer to regard
>>> myself
>>> through rose tinted spectacles. Is this what you mean by undesirable
>>> desires? But I am not sure that the desire for self-respect is any
>>> 'higher'
>>> than any other desire - it just feels higher - and that is why I
>>> like it -
>>> in an older terminology it is one of the seven deadly sins -
>>> pride. In the
>>> end we, ourselves are the only problem confronting humanity; we
>>> are crippled
>>> by our desires and our fears and we have very little love. If we
>>> could learn
>>> to cooperate with each other, the practical problems of the world
>>> could be
>>> easily dealt with in a very short time, but we are all too greedy
>>> and
>>> fearful. Science cannot answer these problems, nor can psychology
>>> nor can
>>> even the non-scientific side of academia(I've heard that there are
>>> whole
>>> departments that deal in values, literature and art for example).
>>> I am
>>> fairly sure that the answer -call it wisdom or love or goodness or
>>> enlightenment - cannot be taught by any method, even by osmosis or
>>> example.
>>> Might it come by grace, when we learn to be honest to ourselves? I
>>> don't
>>> know, but I think that honesty is the first step.
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: Nicholas Maxwell
>>> To: [log in to unmask]
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 21, 2006 12:34 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Wisdom and its definition
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Tom,
>>>
>>> It was not at all the point of my email responding
>>> to the
>>> question "Can wisdom be learned and taught?" that defining wisdom
>>> is an
>>> important thing to do. On the contrary, with slight reservations,
>>> I agree
>>> with Karl Popper: setting out to define terms really is the wrong
>>> thing to
>>> do (see his "Open Society and Its Enemies", ch. 11, section 2).
>>> What I was
>>> really trying to point out was that, when judged from the
>>> standpoint of
>>> helping to promote human welfare or enhance the quality of human
>>> life,
>>> knowledge-inquiry - academic inquiry as, by and large, we have it
>>> at present
>>> - is harmfully irrational. We need a revolution in the aims and
>>> methods of
>>> academic inquiry. This point - really important if it is correct
>>> - can be
>>> made, and perhaps should be made, without appealing to the notion of
>>> "wisdom" at all. (In fact, when I first spelled the argument out,
>>> in my
>>> first book "What's Wrong With Science?" (1976), I did not use the
>>> word
>>> "wisdom " once. Instead I spoke of "delight and compassion".
>>> "Wisdom", for
>>> me, was very much an afterthought, merely shorthand for what I
>>> think really
>>> does matter, our capacity to create a world in which there is less
>>> unnecessary suffering and death than at present, a world in which
>>> more
>>> people are able to realize what is genuinely of value in their
>>> lives.)
>>>
>>> What are the main problems of living confronting
>>> humanity,
>>> and what do we need to do to resolve them? What kind of world
>>> should we be
>>> trying to create? What changes need to be made to academic
>>> inquiry if it is
>>> serve the best interests of humanity in the best way? How can
>>> academic
>>> inquiry best help humanity learn how to create a better world?
>>> How do we
>>> set about convincing our academic colleagues of the need for
>>> change? These
>>> are the kind of issues we ought, in my view, to be discussing, not
>>> the
>>> somewhat scholastic question of how one should define wisdom.
>>> "Wisdom" can,
>>> without doubt, be defined in a variety of ways, and one might pick
>>> on this
>>> definition or that, for this or that purpose. Any attempt to pin
>>> down the
>>> definition seems to me to be misguided.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Nick
>>> www.nick-maxwell.demon.co.uk
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Tom Milner-Gulland"
>>> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 11:03 PM
>>> Subject: Wisdom and its definition
>>>
>>>> If we want to sort out the idea of wisdom by by definitions then
>>> I suggest
>>>> we have to take account of the fact (as I see it) that wisdom
>>> has two
>>>> fairly distinct definitions, one being the simple grammatical
>>> principle
>>>> that it is the nounal form of 'wise' (and therefore is
>>> subordinate to the
>>>> notion of being wise, which surely incorporates such concerns as
>>> the
>>>> intuition of the agent) and the other being the more tangible
>>> notion of a
>>>> body of ideas the astute appropriation of which constitutes
>>> being wise.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it would be wise for list members to consider that we
>>> basically
>>>> know what Nick Maxwell is trying to say, i.e. (IIUC) that
>>> knowledge should
>>>> point us in some kind of general direction as regards what is or
>>> should -
>>>> by some kind of intuition-based rationality, even if it is
>>> imperfect - be
>>>> our common human goals, and it is time to take steps in that
>>> direction.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>>
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