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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Re cathedral priories: the distinction is meaningful, but not completely hard and fast. I don't know any walled-off secular choirs a la Winchester and Rochester, but seculars could always be keen to show themselves as observant as their cloistered cousins. Re Wells: yes. Bishop Jocelin instituted a daily lady mass in 1207. Re choir stalls: my evidence is from the volume on the chapel (Tatton-Brown and Mortimer, ed) published in 2003, to which Charles Tracy contributed a chapter. I don't count out the possibility of having quoted-in-a-rush however. Re Rochester: the supposition is in the crypt, I think - though you are right that the c13 extension there is of interest. The Lady Chapel was called newly constructed in 1322 and was in the south transept, which has a large blank c14 arch in its e wall, by 1389. The dates of both the early Romanesque and early Gothic phases at Rochester remain hotly discussed (among those of us for whom such affairs are 'hot'!). JC -----Original Message----- From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of John Briggs Sent: 04 April 2006 14:11 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: [M-R] Lady Chapels medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Jon Cannon wrote: > > Forgive me for brief replies to kind and stimulating messages: My replies are even briefer :-) > - the axial chapels at Old Sarum and Chichester are (differently) > interesting, though we know the dedication of neither - axial chapels > could and were rebuilt and rededicated to the Virgin (Norwich). But > much more so is the even older axial chapel at Winchester. I will be > suggesting that the Reformed Benedictine cathedral priories seemed to > do rather well in preserving Anglo-Saxon Marian liturgical practices > (and reinventing their spaces) after the Conquest. But the difference is that for a cathedral priory the choir is the exclusive preserve of the monks. > Nevertheless Willis and Hearn do seem to be right in one thing: that > the first attested axial Lady Chapel is the late c12 one at Wells. > And I like their architectural 'quotes' from Marian liturgies. Maybe - but do we have a date for daily Ladymasses at Wells? > Henry VII's chapel is the strongest evidence I have found for > whole-community attendance in Lady Chapels: there are 40 stalls there, > and they must have been for something. But it is late evidence, and > that 'something' may not have been Marian, as the chapel was also to > be a saint's shrine and a Royal chantry. The Westminster choirstalls (although not their function) are described by Charles Tracy in his English Gothic Choir-stalls 1400-1540 (1990). There were originally 28 back (main) stalls and 24 substalls. There were no return stalls. > Nevertheless I would love to pin down this question of how Principal > Feasts would be marked (or not) in Lady Chapels. > > Jim, do you have evidence for multiple burials in the Rochester Lady > Chapel? I believe the previous Lady Chapel was against the west wall > of the transept, and the new one could almost be viewed as a kind of > 'nave' for it. I would love to get to the bottom of its intended > function. I think it's just an assumption that the south transept was previously the Lady Chapel, but in any case the south transept was rebuilt in the late thirteenth century. > I don't think there's any evidence for how either the Gundulf (if it > is that early) or the Lanfranc era crypts at Canterbury and Rochester > were used. Marian ritual is just one possibility. The attested early > 'Lady crypts' are Anselm's Canterbury and Worcester. The crypt east chapel dates from c.1200-1220. It isn't really a crypt and seems to be related to the 'outer crypt' phenomenon. I do wonder if the presbytery was extended eastwards over an existing chapel. John Briggs ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html