I think I understood what you were asking, and thus passed over the example of Thomas that came to mind first. I'm having a harder time trying to think of a scriptural example of the sort you're looking for. Just to make sure I'm on the same page, you're trying to find an example of a biblical scene in which the senses tell an individual that one thing is before him/her while faith tells the person that something else entirely is before him/her. Correct? I'm not sure if this would serve your purpose, but how about the different interpretations of the Last Supper? When Jesus says of the bread, "this is my body," Elizabethan Protestants would look at the bread in the communion and say, "that's still bread" while followers of Rome would say "that is his body." And perhaps the recognition on the road to Emmaus, where the disciples recognize the risen Christ "in the breaking of the bread" might add to this. Still, you're probably looking for a less controversial example, where a patriarch believes one thing despite the evidence of the senses telling him something different. And there I'm drawing a blank. --Andy Fleck Original Message: ----------------- From: James W. Broaddus [log in to unmask] Date: Wed, 10 Aug 2005 13:05:35 -0700 To: [log in to unmask] Subject: 3rd try, faith and the senses, As usual, I didn't explain things clearly. I don't think Thomas provides the equivalent I was looking for. Thomas does not have faith sufficient to believe that the one standing before him was, in fact, the physical Jesus until he proved what he saw by his sense of touch. Redcrosse, on the other hand, does not have faith sufficient to doubt, much less to refuse to believe, that he sees Una in bed with a lusty squire. My revised questions are: does anyone in the scriptures demonstrate the kind of faith Redcrosse lacks? Or is anyone in the scriptures found wanting because he or she lacks such faith? I hope this is clearer. Jim Broaddus Redcrosse, on the other hand, believes what his senses told him about the bed scene. what he saw when ----- Original Message ----- From: James W. Broaddus To: Sidney-Spenser Discussion List Sent: Wednesday, August 10, 2005 11:08 AM Subject: f2nd try, aith and the senses, I think I have sent an incomplete query to the list. Let me try again. Redcrosse's abandonment of Una is typically understood as a failure of faith caused by a dependence on his senses. My question: is there a scriptural equivalent? Christians are asked in different ways have faith and not believe what ordinary experience tells them. But is there an occasion in the Bible in which one's faith is supposed to override what is presented to one's senses. I hope I haven't revealed complete, overwhelming ignorance. Jim Broaddus James W. Broaddus Emeritus, Ind. State. Route 3 Box 1037 Brodhead, KY 40409 -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .