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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Krautheimer's Rome:  Portrait of a City is the definitive discussion of temple reuse, and, I think, the source of the claim that Christians were not eager to move into these demon-haunted places.  Note that while the Pantheon did not become Santa Maria Rotonda until the early 600s, the healing temple of Aesclepius on the Tiber Island never got Christianized until Otto III.

 

--John Howe, Texas Tech

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious culture [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Thomas Izbicki
Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2005 3:12 PM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [M-R] Cybele and BVM

 

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

 

Is there any indication when Christians started reusing temples as churches?  I did a lot of reading on the churches of Rome years ago, & I believe it was Rome in the Dark Ages by Peter Llewellyn (London, 1993) that said Christians let the Pantheon etc. sit idle for a long period before taking them over as churches  (ca. 7th century).

 

Tom Izbicki

 

Thomas Izbicki

Collection Development Coordinator

Eisenhower Library

Johns Hopkins

Baltimore, MD 21218

(410)516-7173

fax (410)516-8399

 

>>> [log in to unmask] 08/23/05 4:04 PM >>>

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

 

Gregory's writ did not run in Greece -- at that point, no one's did -- but

there are a vast number of replacement or evolved shrines.  I used to live

in the Argolid & was fascinated that a shrine to which Hera was taken

annually to bathe (Pausanias) has been, at least from the 12th C, a

convent/monastery to Zoodochos Pigi, the Life-Giving Fountain, which icon

shows the Virgin in a chalice from which pour 4 streams of water.

 

 

Churches dedicated to Ag. Marina [Western Margherita] show her with a dragon

out of which she busted: every Ag. Marina I know is built on the base of a

temple to Athena [who busted out of Zeus' head....].

 

Ag. Elias who went to heaven in a chariot has long been confounded with

Helios & his sun chariot.

 

The small church to Ag. Thomas encorporates a preChristian rock with a hole

in it through which children are passed for healing.  And so on and so

forth.

 

It is, I believe, impossible to demonstrate continuity at any of these

sites: there have been so many massacres, transfers of populations,

destructions of buildings, periods of wealth & literacy [and so familiarity

with classical works], foreign dominations [including foreigners who come

wanting continuities], etc..

 

DW

 

 

2. What may be significant would be attempts to uproot Cybele worship AND

replace it with Marian veneration. To chart this one would have to know a

fair number of Cybele temples which became Marian shrines or hymns to Mary

patterned on earlier aretologies. Here Ep. XI.56 of Gregory the Great (601)

is instructive. In  this letter he deliberately advocates replacement of

non-Christian effigies and shrines with Christian ones. This was a change

from his earlier policy--and that of Boniface--of simply obliterating

non-Christian cultic images. Augustine also wrote about the replacement of

a Christian church on the site of a Magna Mater temple on the Carthage

Byrsa. Though the temple was demolished women still brought their offerings

to the hill. There is also the case of the Kollyridian in Epiphanius,

Panarian.  Finally, the shrine to Mary at the base of the hill of the

Parthenon in Athens (still extant) might be instructive. It is on the site

of what was once a goddess shrine and the guardians of the Marian shrine to

this day are all women.

      It is true, as several correspondents have noted, that early

Christianity did not teach that Mary should be given divine honors.

However, the history of Marian devotion does not always make clear how

people venerating Mary imagined her or what they might be doing on site

formerly hallowed by goddess worship.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Author

 Borgeaud, Philippe

  Title

 Mère des dieux. English

 

 Mother of the gods : from Cybele to the Virgin Mary / Philippe Borgeaud ;

 translated by Lysa Hochroth

  Imprint

 Baltimore : Johns Hopkins University Press, 2004

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                         Click on the following to:

      Connect to http://www.loc.gov/catdir/bios/jhu051/2004004563.html

   Connect to http://www.loc.gov/catdir/description/jhu051/2004004563.html

      Connect to http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/ecip0415/2004004563.html

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Descript

 xix, 186 p. ; 24 cm

  Bibliog.

 Includes bibliographical references (p. [133]-177) and indexes

  Contents

 An itinerant mother -- In the Athenian Agora -- The invention of a

 mythology -- The mother's entrance into the Roman Republic -- The origin

 of the Mater Magna -- Attis in the Imperial period -- From mother of the

 gods to Mother of God

  Subjects

 Mary, Blessed Virgin, Saint -- Devotion to

 

 Cybele (Goddess)

 

 Christianity and other religions -- Roman

 

 Mother goddesses -- Rome

  OCLC #

 54529874

  ISBN

 080187985X (alk. paper

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Author

 Julian, Emperor of Rome, 331-363

  Title

 Eis t¯en m¯etera t¯on the¯on. Italian & Greek

 

 Alla madre degli dei / Giuliano Imperatore ; edizione critica, traduzione

 e commento a cura di Valerio Ugenti

  Imprint

 [Galatina] : Gongedo, 1992

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Alt name

 Ugenti, Valerio, 1950-

  Descript

 xxx, 176 p. ; 24 cm

  Series

 Testi e studi / Università degli studi di Lecce, Dipartimento di filologia

 classica e medioevale ; 6

 

 Testi e studi (Università degli studi di Lecce. Dipartimento di filologia

 classica e medioevale) ; 6

  Bibliog.

 Includes bibliographical references and indexes

  Subjects

 Cybele (Goddess) -- Cult -- Early works to 1800

 

 Attis (God) -- Cult -- Early works to 1800

 

 Rome -- Religion -- Early works to 1800

  OCLC #

 33357148

  ISBN

 8877865547 : L50.000

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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| Author                                                                   |

|Langener, Lucia                                                           |

| Title                                                                    |

|Isis lactans--Maria lactans : Untersuchungen zur koptischen Ikonographie /|

|Lucia Langener                                                            |

| Publish info                                                             |

|Altenberge : Oros Verlag, 1996                                            |

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| Descript'n                                                               |

|xiii, 323 p., viii, 190 p. : ill. ; 21 cm                                 |

| Series                                                                   |

|Arbeiten zum spätantiken und koptischen Ägypten ; 9                       |

| Note                                                                     |

|Originally presented as the author's thesis (Westfälischen                |

|Wilhelms-Universität in Münster, 1995)                                    |

|                                                                          |

|Includes bibliographical references                                       |

| Subjects                                                                 |

|Isis (Egyptian deity) -- Art                                              |

|                                                                          |

|Mary, Blessed Virgin, Saint -- Art                                        |

|                                                                          |

|Breastfeeding in art                                                      |

|                                                                          |

|Art, Coptic -- Themes, motives                                            |

| OCLC #                                                                   |

|37157894                                                                  |

| ISBN                                                                     |

|3893751319 :                                                              |

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Also see

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| An Isis Aretalogy from Kyme in Asia Minor, First Century B.C.E. / Gail   |

| Corrington Streete                                                       |

|                                                                          |

|                                                                          |

|                                                                          |

|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

in

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|                                                                          |

|                                                                          |

| Title                                                                    |

|Religions of late antiquity in practice / Richard Valantasis, editor      |

| Publish info                                                             |

|Princeton, N.J. : Princeton University Press, c2000                       |

|                                                                          |

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|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|

 

When one finds a litany directly patterned on an aretology of a goddess,

one can surmise something of the tactics Gregory promoted.

 

      For those of you who are interested in Mariology, I suggest the

resources of the library of the International Marian Research Institute,

here in Dayton. Their web page is

<http://www.udayton.edu/~mary/>. The library holdings can be accessed at

<http://library.udayton.edu>.

Maureen A. Tilley

Coordinator of Undergraduate Studies

President, North American Patristics Society

University of Dayton, Department of Religious Studies

Dayton, OH 45469-1530

(937) 229-4564

 

 

 

|---------+---------------------------------->

|         |           Thomas Izbicki         |

|         |           <[log in to unmask]>      |

|         |           Sent by:               |

|         |           medieval-religion -    |

|         |           Scholarly discussions  |

|         |           of medieval religious  |

|         |           culture                |

|         |           <MEDIEVAL-RELIGION@JISC|

|         |           MAIL.AC.UK>            |

|         |                                  |

|         |                                  |

|         |           08/23/2005 02:23 PM    |

|         |           Please respond to      |

|         |           medieval-religion -    |

|         |           Scholarly discussions  |

|         |           of medieval religious  |

|         |           culture                |

|---------+---------------------------------->

 

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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  |

|

  |       To:       [log in to unmask]

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  |       cc:

|

  |       Subject:  Re: [M-R] Cybele and BVM

|

 

>---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

 

I have seen it suggested recently, in a book on Herculaneum, that poses for

Virgin & Child might have been copied back when from Isis & Horus.  Has

anyone actually done comparative work in that line?

 

Copying styles, of course, is not the same as simple renaming of a godess,

which I find unlikely.

 

Tom Izbicki

 

Thomas Izbicki

Collection Development Coordinator

Eisenhower Library

Johns Hopkins

Baltimore, MD 21218

(410)516-7173

fax (410)516-8399

 

>>> [log in to unmask] 08/23/05 2:10 AM >>>

medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

 

I, for one, do not believe it in any sense, think it is nonsense and

impossible to back up. Claims of this sort have been around ever since

there

were Christians to persecute and will always be with us. The innate thirst

for the transcendent chafes certain people, who then find it necessary to

lash out at believers. I learned ages ago to ignore them.

MG

 

 

>From: Jim Bugslag <[log in to unmask]>

>Reply-To: medieval-religion - Scholarly discussions of medieval religious

 

>            culture <[log in to unmask]>

>To: [log in to unmask]

>Subject: Re: [M-R] saints of the day 22. August

>Date: Mon, 22 Aug 2005 20:28:02 -0500

> 

>medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

> 

> 

> > As Cybele, the Mother Goddess, has been replaced by the BVM

> 

>A claim that, however much one would like to believe it in some sense, is

>very

>difficult to back up, let alone explain.  Any takers?

>Cheers,

>Jim Bugslag

> 

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