medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture

Thanks to Bernadette and Jean-Luc. One important step closer!
'Tressaillement de l'enfant' is descriptive, but does not 
appear to be an established concept. The prayer is not dated,
but the majority of my French sources are all from the period 
c.1430-1450 (preceding the Breton translation by a century).

'Quickening' is in fact the correct term also according to my old
Oxford Dictionary. 'with quick child' : "at stage of pregnancy 
when motion has been felt" (5th ed.1964) is it still current?
The term 'quickening' has the disadvantage that it has little
change of being understood by a wider audience. But if it has
been used with the same connotation in Middle English will I 
readily promote it as official. (See Tyndale's below**)

What would it then have been called in Church Latin in the 15th?
Probably the same as in the passage on the Visitation, Luc.1,41:
'..ut audivit salutationem Marie Elizabeth, exultavit infans 
in utero eius : et repleta est spiritu sancto Elizabeth ...
and verse 44: '..exultavit in gaudio infans in utero meo'
(here are we even closer to the origin of the 15 joys!)
An obscure passage open to various interpretations.

How about a new(?) liturgical term: "Exultatio Marie"?, 
coined on 'Annunciatio' and 'Visitatio'. 
Or does such a term already exist?

I am still very much in doubt about the origin of the 
'Quinze joies' - are we facing a piece of amateur folklore,
or is it a teological product, cleverly conceived to 
campaign among the french female population?
Lot's of questions, some of which would be more easy to
address if we only had a better idea of the date and place
of origin.
All best
Erik Drigsdahl

**Tyndale has: '...the babe spronge in her belly ...
and: ' sone as the voyce of thy salutacion sowned in myne 
eares, the babe lepte in my belly for ioye..' (followed by 
the Magnificat).

>----- Original Message ----- 
>At 21:15 +0200 11/04/05, Bernadette Filotas wrote:
>The correct English term is " quickening" but a quick - no, rapid - look
>through the web suggests that in the liturgy it is usually applies to the
>action of the Holy Spirit.
>----- Original Message ----- 
>From: "Pecia" <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Monday, April 11, 2005 3:03 PM
>Subject: Re: [M-R] When the child moved in the womb
     ... Concernant le passage que vous citez il le titre
>"tressaillement de l'enfant dans le ventre de sa mère".
>jl deuffic

_____________________________________________________________________ Erik Drigsdahl   CHD Center for Haandskriftstudier i Danmark 
Kapelvej 25B         Phone: +45 +35 37 20 47                      
DK-2200 Copenhagen N      Email: <[log in to unmask]>                

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