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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Oof, I'm sorry, John D., please accept my apologies. The confusion is all my fault.This is what comes of doing three things at once. Now that the "overview" book has been released, I've been asked to write up the iconography of "the" Law as the first book-length project on one component of a writing system. I wont go into how when the penny dropped about the iconography of the ziggarut/high place meant going back over every darn one of roughly 6,000 hard copy examples of shape from that point of view.. at least the light dawned before I had completed the project! (Shiver) John Dillon wrote: >Hi, Rochelle > >On Tuesday, January 4, 2005, at 3:47 pm, you wrote: > >>You mean on the order of San Ambroggio in Milan?? >>The floor plan does have more or less the form... >> >Well, I didn't specify Christian and in fact that's not what I had in >mind. What I had in mind was one version of the Roman basilica with its >semi-circular apse off a basically rectangular building. The basilica >in the legionary camp at Laudun is an excellent example of the general form: >http://ville-laudun.fr/img/patrim/cesar/basilik.jpg > > Yes, I have a photo of it in my collection. The detached "round" building is much older -- this is a refinement of the "beehive" construction that dates back to pre-historic times..Then the round tower type construction, another refinement on the "beehive," for instance, on Sardinia (before the Carthaginians changed the architecture ca. 8th BCE) demonstrates a stage in the development of this type of detached round structure. The term, of course, comes from Greek for the royal place where the King held his court of justice in a separate building. The Greek version was pillared and open. >but not of the version of which I was thinking, where the apse comes off >a short wall. For that, cf. the Constantinian basilica at Trier: >http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/109images/Early_Christian/Missorium/Trier_Baslica_int.jpg >TinyURL for this: http://tinyurl.com/4ahvj > >That's pretty close in outline to the object you showed: >http://www.hamsa.com/hamsa_jewish_gold_jewelry/PMC-G_menorah_300.html > > > It is indeed very similar. >Of course, as is well known, the form was indeed adopted in Christian >churches. But we don't have to come down nearly as far in time as >Sant'Ambrogio in Milan for examples. Cf. Santa Sabina in Rome: >http://www.op.org/international/assets/images/Curia/santa_sabina1.jpg > >or these less impressive specimens: >http://198.62.75.1/www1/ofm/fai/FAIexp01.gif >(some construction on one side of the apse) >and >http://www.athenapub.com/novae3.htm > >But the form's use by Christians doesn't make it essentially Christian. > Unfortunately, it does. "Basilica" is strongly linked to the architcture of Christian churches. Now in a work meant strictly for the scholarly community I can, with explanatory comments, use "basilica," but in a heavily researched work that will also be read by the layreader, "basilica" is linked to Christian iconography -- so he can't use it. >>That would be a fine explanation for Christian markers >>and internal/external architectural features, but it would >>not explain the appearance on Jewish grave markers and >>internal/external architectural features. >> >True. But my comment wasn't offered to explain these. In fact, it >wasn't offered as an explanation at all. What I said was: >"The outline is that of a very common form of single-apsed basilica. >Just in case no one had noticed." > > Yes, and I misinterpreted the comment as a possible answer to my request for help on terminology for a friend.. >If the floor plans of some single-apsed basilicas are similar in >outline, then perhaps the literature on these might be a place to go >hunting for a suuitable descriptive term. > The scholarly literature uses "basilica" and apse, but essentially as a church architectural term. One of my history of architecture books has perhaps 150 pages on the development of the apse and basilica -- with nary a mention in its developmen of the synagogue form, or the role of pre-historic and Greek detached round "Royal justice" court structures, or the Sumerian arch shape symbolizing the shape as indicating a place under the protection of a god. Two other books are solely on the development of Christian church architecture. If you do a library search on the subject, the Christian link predominates. So, not a neutral term. > > >>And as I said, when >>incised (actually excised writing area then incised) in the >>body of the marker -- Christian or Jewish --, the three are >>all the same height and size. Then a stylized version shows >>up on Moslem grave markers.... >> > >The application of this to the outline of the figure you showed at >http://www.hamsa.com/hamsa_jewish_gold_jewelry/PMC-G_menorah_300.html >escapes me. > > The applicaztion is to the relationship of wall tablets and grave markers to the shape. And there are certainly enough grave markers from the 9th centiury that have this shape. I suspect that we could distinguish Christian sects, e.g. Arian from Roman, by the shape of really early grave markers. >>Then, there is the problem that the oldest single-apse >>basilicas had "square" shoulders, that is, the round >>extension simply meets the wall of the main structure >>squarely. >> > >I don't see what's problematic about that. The figure you showed also >has square shoulders. > > I said it was all my fault. I forgot which was which. To use John B's term, right now I have been trying to make sure that I dig up as many as possible variations on the "rounded shoulder" arch while at the same time asking for help for a friend on the "shouldered round" arch... I plumb forgot the hamsa piece is the "shouldered round" and not the "rounded shoulder," i.e, the early apse as in the 3rd-century AEgina synagogue and the 4th-century Constantine basilica and several hundred other church architecture examples -- which I also have on hand. (I still head for hard copy first --. hope I get more accustomd to surfing soon -- very soon) >>I think we've run into the need for a neutral, >>generally applicable designation. >>No disagreement here. But as no one has suggested a non-neutral >>designation, I don't see your rationale in saying this. >> The term "basilica" is not neutral, unfortunately. How could it be? It's Greek and has certain associations. We can confine it to its original use of place of Royal justice, or we can admit that its primary use, post 1st CE, is in discussing Christian church architecture. >>The apse in Greco/Roman temples was squared off and >>/within /the temple.. The basilica is /without/ the structure-- >>a round extension to house the apse -- with a raised dias and >>a railing to separate the leader/priest from the congregation. >>The early Christians incorporated many of the symbols of the >>J'lem temple. >>I don't see the pertinence of Greek-Roman temples. Why bring them up? >> In my study of the iconography of shape (/not /his), I have to -- just as I have to examine Egyptian (different yet again) and examples from other cultures (e.g. Buhhdist temple architecture, Chinese, Mayan) for pruiposes of comparison. It has become an automatic response --I guess it stems from the books on the histpry of architecture. >>In any case, the "bimah," or raised place where the leader of a >>congregation stood -- behind a railing -- was within a round >>apse extending outwards from the main structure. A third century >>Synagogue on AEgina (not on-line, saw in person have photos) -- >>or rather the mosaic floor is what's left and is in surprisingly >>good condition -- is an exellent example of a single round apse >>with "square" shoulders. >> >>While the single round arch (which is why the apse is a rounded >>architectural external projection) dates back to Sumer/Akkad and >>Egypt -- with different symbolism on each side of the ANE --, I >>have not been able to find examples of the double round arch before >>the 3rd-2nd BCE -- and that in Ptolemaic Egypt. I don't think we can >>classify the two Assyrian side-by-side round god-symbols on the tablet >>from Sippar as a double arch... In Syriac iconography, the triple >>archsymbolizes the Synoptic Gospels, so obviouosly cannot be found >>BCE. >>It's really very involved and intertwined. Under the circs, I hope >>you will not be offended if I think it would be best to use round >>shouldered -- it's neutral and applies to Jewish, Christian, and >>Moslem artifacts and architecture. >> >> >> Not having offered a term that one might use, I can hardly be offended >>by your adoption of "round-shouldered". >> >> My error, I thought you were supplying another possible answer to my request. >>Though, if you're using >>"shoulder" to describe the corners of the outline from which the curved >>element projects, this term doesn't seem particularly accurate. >> I don't know about that, John. It's a common term of reference to people. We talk about people with square or round shoulders. The analogy is rather clear and permits a mental visualization of what is intended.. After my own mix-up, though, I'm wondering if it would be too confusing to use the term "rounded shoulder" arch for the San Ambroggio type and "shouldered round" arch for the single-apse type? That is, IF the distinctions are carefully explained and the relationship to the shape of early synagogue/Greek "basilica" architecture laid out... And again, please accept my apologies for my confusion of two different types, All the best, Rochelle >Best, >John Dillon > > ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html