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Lawrence Upton wrote: >>.So this selfish bastard--yes, for what is suicide but a "fuck you" >> >> >gesture to people who love and care for you? > >It is a lot of things else, Ken; and I doubt anyone who has ever been near to suicide would say what you have said - as with your use of "execute" earlier you are asserting assumptions as unproblematic facts > >L > > Since tempers are flaring here and someone is likely to say some things that can't be fixed, let's keep this brief. I have known two attempted suicides and one who was successful. One of the attempteds I used to sleep with. I was married to the sister of the other attempter. The success deliberately gave herself a "hot shot" of heroin in 1973 and her brother made the sincere promise to kill anyone from her past--including her ex-husband--who showed up at the funeral. So please don't tell me what I do and do not know about the attitude and effects here unless you are speaking from direct knowledge you are willing to share. I saw the effect on the families. I am seeing them now. Yes, there is more than a dismissive attitude on the part of the would-be suicide, there is desperation and hopelessness--but there also appears to be a disregard for the consequences of his (or her) act on the people who remain behind. Perhaps my ex and my older son, both of whom lived with him for a year, ought to have seen what was going on and did some sort of "intervention"; but that is hard to do when you see the person every day and don't quite take in the subtle decline. Whether or not my brother-in-law dies, the repair work to fix what was broken will be extensive and perhaps impossible to handle. Stephen shattered lives. This is not Masada. Note via the reply-to that I would prefer to take this conversation private, if conversation there must be. Right now I'm sorry I ever brought it up. Ken -- Kenneth Wolman Proposal Development Department Room SW334 Sarnoff Corporation 609-734-2538