Print

Print


You know there has never been any issue with motives.  Why on earth would I
do it for altruistic purposes?  I complained because I dislike, personally,
receiving SMS UCE.  Period.

This is the sweetest flame I've ever had :)

-----Original Message-----
From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
[mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Turner
Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 9:26 AM
To: [log in to unmask]
Subject: Re: [data-protection] Data Protection and Customer Service

Implicit in your response seems to be the idea that people who make
complaints about issues like this do it for altruistic reasons on behalf of
the silent majority. I think they do it for personal reasons. However,
that's an aside. I haven't said that you have no right to have your rights
upheld, I merely suggested that there are more important things for civil
servants to be doing, in my opinion. We agree that the Commissioner does not
do a good job of enforcement. My solution is just different - I would give
him and his staff the room to look at what I think are the big issues.

> ----------
> From:         Tim Trent[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> Reply To:     Tim Trent
> Sent:         06 July 2004 09:05
> To:   [log in to unmask]
> Subject:      Re: [data-protection] Data Protection and Customer Service
>
> Time will tell whether he decides that the complaint was serious.
> Nonetheless he has a statutory duty to investigate as far as he finds
> wise.
>
> It is not unlawful to put nauseating pictures of pizza through your
> letterbox.  Even if it were, the delivery brat is the data processor
> here (or would be were personal data to be involved), and the pizza
> house the data controller.  So chasing the delivery brat would be a
> great way to get prosecuted yourself for chasing brats.  But chasing
> the pizza house would make us all grateful to you.
>
> Why do you argue that I have no right to have my rights upheld just
> because that creates work for someone?
>
> If the law is unenforceable then it should be repealed.  If it remains
> on the statute books it should be enforced.  Work or lack thereof for
> public servants is not the issue here.  Lawful use of data is.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Turner
> Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 8:51 AM
> To: [log in to unmask]
> Subject: Re: [data-protection] Data Protection and Customer Service
>
> By that line of thinking, has he decided that your complaint wasn't
> serious?
>
>
> It is the individual's job to have perspective. An unwanted email is -
> to my view - not serious, no matter how many people receive it. I get
> between five and ten fliers through my door every week, delivered from
> local fast food outlets. I find them irritating because they are a
> waste of paper and the day-glo photographs of pineapple pizza are
> nauseating. However, I'm not going to chase down the street after the
> lad who delivers them, because even if I scare the hell out of him,
> it'll be another lad who delivers the next batch. Far easier to throw
> the fliers away.
>
> The IC's job is to regulate - I did notice that. But he should first
> be regulating the important aspects of Data Protection - for example,
> the way in which the police store intelligence, the use of data to
> calculate credit scores, the issue of how we manage the transition
> from Education and Social Services to whatever the Children's Bill
> envisages - which compete for the same resources. If I get bothered by
> spam email that originates in the UK or Europe, telling a company that
> I have complained or will complain to the IC and the ASA has exactly
> the same effect as actually doing that, without wasting the time of
> public servants who, in my opinion, have more important things to do.
>
>
> > ----------
> > From:         Tim Trent[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > Reply To:     Tim Trent
> > Sent:         06 July 2004 08:31
> > To:   [log in to unmask]
> > Subject:      Re: [data-protection] Data Protection and Customer Service
> >
> > An interesting viewpoint.  I don't agree with you over it.
> >
> > You see the Information Commissioner was created to regulate.  So
> > regulate he must.  Being very sweet to him and lightening his
> > workload is both generous and apparently practical.  And yet it
> > falls short of encouraging him to regulate.  We either have laws and
> > enforce them well or should repeal the laws.
> >
> > My "single" item along with your "single item" form the same source
> > and other people's "single items" show the scope of problems that
> > *are* the serious problems.  It is not the individual's role to
> > judge seriousness but the regulator's.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: This list is for those interested in Data Protection issues
> > [mailto:[log in to unmask]] On Behalf Of Tim Turner
> > Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 8:24 AM
> > To: [log in to unmask]
> > Subject: Re: [data-protection] Data Protection and Customer Service
> >
> > Isn't it likely that if people complain about every single email to
> > the regulatory Holy Trinity, this will simply increase their backlogs?
> > This, in turn, will lessen the likelihood that any of these
> > organisations will be able to respond effectively to any complaints?
> > This situation involves one email. And yet now, we have three
> > separate organisations potentially creating a case, writing
> > responses, taking time. My response in a similar situation (not that
> > it happens very
> > often) is
> >
> > 1. SPAM UCE arrives.
> > 2. Hit delete key.
> > 3. Make cup of tea.
> >
> > I know I'm being dismissive, but I don't think we should be paying
> > organisations like the ASA and IC to deal with single email complaints.
> > They'll never deal with the big issues if they get distracted by the
> > small ones. Moreover, they could even use their huge complaints
> > backlog as an excuse not to do anything, on the basis that they
> > wouldn't know where to start. Admittedly, I've never heard anyone
> > try this, but give them time, and sufficient complaints mountain,
> > and it might happen.
> >
> > Tim Turner
> >
> > > ----------
> > > From:         Tim Trent[SMTP:[log in to unmask]]
> > > Reply To:     Tim Trent
> > > Sent:         05 July 2004 16:17
> > > To:   [log in to unmask]
> > > Subject:      [data-protection] Data Protection and Customer Service
> > >
> > > I am not going to name the company.  After all the Chief Privacy
> > > Officer is on this list.  But look at the following scenario:
> > >
> > > 1.      SPAM UCE arrives.  Trust me, this is to an individual
> > subscriber.
> > > 2.      I go to the corporate website and use the contact form to
> lodge
> > a
> > > complaint, quoting DPA 1998 and 2002/58/EC
> > > 3.      Several days later I get an email acknowledgement which is not
> > > wholly satisfactory, telling me to ask the Telephone Preference
> > > Authority
> > > (sic) for advice
> > > 4.      I respond suggesting a more in depth response would be
> desirable
> > > 5.      I decide they are asleep and lodge a complaint with the ASA,
> the
> > > TPS
> > > and the Sleeping Giant (oops I meant "TICO"!)
> > > 6.      Several days pass and I get an email acknowledgement which is
> > very
> > > junior and does not meet my needs, nor those of the DPA nor 2002/58/EC
> > > 7.      I respond and mention that I have now complained to the ASA,
> TPS
> > > and
> > > TICO
> > > 8.      Several days elapse.  I get an email telling me I must "Write
> on
> > > paper to the following address".  Apparently I must follow their
> > > procedures if I am to complain to them.
> > > 9.      I choose not to be fobbed off and explain my formal procedure
> > for
> > > complaining and tell them that they must follow *my* procedure for
> > > complaints and suggest they take it seriously
> > > 10.     I get an email response (eventually) reiterating the demand to
> > > send
> > > a written complaint
> > > 11.     I resist the overwhelming urge to allow my toys to leave my
> > pram,
> > > am
> > > exceedingly patient in my explanation again of my complaints
> > > procedure.  I do make a helpful suggestion.  (Watch it!  I know
> > > you
> > > lot!!)  I suggest to them that they really ought to take this
> > > seriously and escalate it to someone who understands that there is
> > > an
> > issue
> > > 12.     A very nice lady calls me today to introduce herself and tell
> me
> > > that she is taking this seriously and that there is a major
> > > customer service education issue here which she will handle, plus
> > > getting to the bottom of the problem.  She handles me well, gives
> > > me a realistic expectation of a response (even if it is a call to
> > > say "no progress so
> > > far") and leaves me in a pleasant mood.  I ask her if "Fred Smith"
> > > is their Chief Privacy Officer.
> > > She confirms that Fred is indeed the CPO.
> > > 13.     I wonder to myself if Fred is about to receive a call from
> her.
> > > Fred?  I'm sorry.  I just happen to take this very seriosuly and
> > > perosnally.
> > > I know you do too, but it seems that your message hasn't got to
> > > the front line troops regularly and properly.  "Fred" of course
> > > may be "Freda".  I really don't want to identify the corporation that
way.
> > >
> > > The lesson here is simple.
> > >
> > > As CPO, "How do I get my message to the customer facing parts of
> > > my organisation in such a way that they will take it seriously?"
> > >
> > > I may well feature this entire saga, anonymised unless the ASA etc
> > > find against the corporation when it will be mega public domain
> > > stuff anyway [Hmm, memo to CPOs "Want to stay off Google for the
> > > RIGHT reasons?"] in one of our newsletters.  I don't copy this
> > > list on those.  I find that overly commerically intrusive, but I
> > > have put an RSS newsfeed on our website so people may see new stuff
with ease!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Tim Trent - Consultant
> > > Direct: +44(0)1344 392644 Mobile:+44(0)7710 126618
> > > email: [log in to unmask]
> > > <blocked::mailto:[log in to unmask]>
> > > Marketing Improvement Limited, Abbey House, Grenville Place,
> > > Bracknell, United Kingdom, RG12 1BP
> > > <blocked::http://www.marketingimprovement.com/>
> > > http://www.marketingimprovement.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This message is for the intended addressee's use only. It may
> > > contain confidential, proprietary or legally privileged information.
> > > No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any
> > > mis-transmission. If you receive this message in error, please
> > > immediately delete it and all copies of it from your system,
> > > destroy any hard copies of it and notify the sender. You must not,
> > > directly or indirectly, use, disclose, distribute, print, or copy
> > > any part of this message if you are not the intended recipient.
> > > Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual
> > > sender, except where the message states otherwise and the sender
> > > is authorised to state them to be the views of any such entity.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >        All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
> > >       available to the world wide web community at large at
> > >       http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
> > >       If you wish to leave this list please send the command
> > >        leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
> > >             All user commands can be found at : -
> > >         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
> > >   (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
> > > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > >
> >
> >
> > ********************************************************************
> > ** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > are
> addressed.
> > If you have received this email in error please notify the system
> manager.
> >
> > This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept
> > by MIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses using Sophos
> > anti-virus software.
> >
> > www.mimesweeper.com
> > www.sophos.com
> > ********************************************************************
> > **
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >        All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
> >       available to the world wide web community at large at
> >       http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
> >       If you wish to leave this list please send the command
> >        leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
> >             All user commands can be found at : -
> >         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
> >   (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >        All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
> >       available to the world wide web community at large at
> >       http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
> >       If you wish to leave this list please send the command
> >        leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
> >             All user commands can be found at : -
> >         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
> >   (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
> > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>        All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
>       available to the world wide web community at large at
>       http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
>       If you wish to leave this list please send the command
>        leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
>             All user commands can be found at : -
>         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
>   (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>        All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
>       available to the world wide web community at large at
>       http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
>       If you wish to leave this list please send the command
>        leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
>             All user commands can be found at : -
>         http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
>   (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
      available to the world wide web community at large at
      http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
      If you wish to leave this list please send the command
       leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
            All user commands can be found at : -
        http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
  (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
       All archives of messages are stored permanently and are
      available to the world wide web community at large at
      http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/data-protection.html
      If you wish to leave this list please send the command
       leave data-protection to [log in to unmask]
            All user commands can be found at : -
        http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/help/commandref.htm
  (all commands go to [log in to unmask] not the list please)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^