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Dear Brian, I understand the issue concerning proprietary formats and that an aim is preservation. I've said all along that masters should be stored in a neutral format. My issue concerns what happens at a presentation level. Acrobat and Flash have clear value in delivering material, they do things that HTML can (and never will) do. This is why they are so widely used..., by Government departments as well as private sector organisations. A major weakness of HTML delivery is the control that the user has over the display of a page. This is a great strength for those with accessibility issues, but for the designers of the pages, it is a major headache when looking at how the pages will display as the results cannot be guaranteed. If someone is trying to recreate a page in the style of the original just using HTML, it will not work. This is where Acrobat scores heavily as the results are predictable, cross-platform, every time. It is also portable and will work on PDAs, offline, etc. On the issue of IT developers hijacking users - can you name one instance where this has ever happened? The BT example is not strictly the same issue, as this was a patented technology that they registered and by all accounts is very weak if challenged legally anyway as researchers in Xerox actually "invented" hyperlinking about 20 years previously. The only comparable occurrence is with GIFs where Unisys have enforced their rights to the underlying compression algorithms - not on the users of the files, but on the companies that make the tools to create them - as long as you are using a tool that is licensed to create GIFs, you are OK. I think the nervousness over proprietary formats is unjustified - formats such as PDF are so widespread, that Adobe would be committing commercial suicide if they were to try to introduce charging. Again, I ask the question raised in a previous e-mail - if proprietary formats are to be avoided does this mean that NOF-funded projects should avoid using: cassette tapes, CDs, DVDs (invented by Philips), DV video tapes, VHS video tapes (invented by JVC), 8MM video tapes (invented by Sony), APS film (invented by a consortia of film companies)? I am also concerned that we are losing sight here of the end users - surely these projects should also be about opening access to and delivering vibrant, exciting, educational content. There is a risk that in the desire to chase ultimate non-proprietary, standards-based delivery (which is a great aim), the end result could be bland or geared to the lowest common denominator. The "shareholders" here are the population of the UK - what do they want? Acrobat does not specifically benefit developers/consultants either - we use it, but I would not dream of charging someone to convert a document, as the software is available and cheap and it is as easy as printing a document. The whole point with Acrobat is that you use an original (non-Acrobat) document to create a PDF, thereby solving the issue of preservation and enabling enhanced presentation for those users that need it. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big supporter of NOF, UKOLN and the NOF Digi funding stream and do firmly believe there should be standards, but I'm just concerned that the NOF projects could spend a lot of time (and money) chasing some standards or trying to overcome some of the limitations of HTML, when there are widely used technologies out there that do the job well/easily. I'm just keen to stimulate debate - any thoughts/comments? Regards Chris Meaney (AIMC) Managing Director ======================================================================== Harvard Consultancy Services Ltd, Bexin House, 2/3 St. Andrews Place Southover Road, Lewes, East Sussex, BN7 1UP Tel: 01273 897517, Fax: 01273 471929, E-Mail: [log in to unmask] Registered in England & Wales no. 3766540 Registered Office: 50 Harvard Close, Malling, Lewes, East Sussex, BN7 2EJ -----Original Message----- From: Brian Kelly [mailto:[log in to unmask]] Sent: 22 February 2002 11:00 To: [log in to unmask] Cc: [log in to unmask] Subject: Re: pre digitised conversion to html > QUESTIONS TO ASK ABOUT HTML: Deleted questions which aim to make proprietary formats seem a better choice than HTML. Nobody is arguing that proprietary formats do not have their advantages. If they didn't there wouldn't be lively discussions on this subject! However you seem to be missing an important factor of the NOF-digitise programme which is the digitising of our cultural heritage for long term preservation. Proprietary formats are, by definition, owned by someone, normally large commercial companies. Such companies have to act on behalf of their shareholders e.g. to maximise dividends for them (I'm sure other are more au fait with relevant Companies acts). Ownership of proprietary formats is a potential gold mine for companies. We have a clear example of that at present with BT claiming the patent of hyperlinks in the US (the patent has expired elsewhere). They are claiming royalties from one of the large ISPs in the States and if they are successful they will chase others. There is nothing to stop other companies doing likewise - and indeed one good argue that companies are obliged to maximise dividends as BT are trying to do. So the key issue isn't the functionality, widespread deployment or accessibility of proprietary formats, but being hostage to fortune to the business decisions of mainly large American IT companies (which, as we have seen has taken a downturn in recent years and post Sep 11). It's also worth pointing out that use of proprietary formats is not only beneficial to the companies owning the formats, but also software developers, consultants, etc. who have expertise in the formats. However what is good for these groups is not necessarily good for the content owners of the funders. Brian --------------------------------------- Brian Kelly UK Web Focus UKOLN University of Bath BATH BA2 7AY Email: [log in to unmask] Web: http://www.ukoln.ac.uk/ Phone: 01225 38 3943