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medieval-religion: Scholarly discussions of medieval religion and culture Marjorie Greene <[log in to unmask]> wrote: >First, let me confess I didn't read to the end of your message. well, of course not. those last 12k are just there for show. "Fire for Effect," as they say in the Artillery, once the target is nicely bracketed. >Saint-Denis, if one is to believe *most* books i.e., the secondary literature? believable if traceable back to the primary sources (in this case, archeological evidence is as good as written sources). >treating of its history, was originally a... basilica! in definitions 1 and 2, i assume you mean --i.e., that the building itself was "basilican" in *form* (or, perhaps, was thought to be such by some ancient writer who so characterized it thus --*which* writer, btw?). (now's about the time i wish i could find duCange on line, see what obscure sources he cites under his entry for _BASILICA_.) >"Built" by Sainte Genevieve over the supposed tomb of Denis in a cemetery of Catolacum ? the original name of the romano-gaulish settlement? i don't think i've ever seen that one. >and, according to ctault's posting, probably requiring the pope's participation in its designation as such. NO that's not my understanding, at all. if some ancient source indeed refers to the building as a "basilica," it has nothing whatever to do with the modern use of that term in the Roman church. the place was --or was not-- a basilica because of it's architectural form, not because of anything any pope did or did not do. likewise, the modern designation of "basilica" has *nothing* whatever to do with the particular architectural form which a building takes (the thrust of CTAult's contribution), but is rather some sort of Papal designation, of relatively quite recent date, concerning *only* its *institutional* character and status among churches (note the distinction between "Greater" and "Lesser" Basilicas in the CE article cited by someone else here recently). thus, a *totally* different question. >It was Dagobert who imported some Benedictines to care for the shrine and pray for his ever-blackening soul. The church thus became a basilical abbatiale. goodness, i don't believe i've ever, *ever* seen that wonderful mongrelisation before: "basilical abbatiale" nicely blending languages, architectural terminologies and institutional status, all at once, with a very nice ring to it, as well. my hat's off to you on that one! "Confusion to the Bugslags," i say! and: "Pass the Bottle." >If we are speaking of the _current_ edifice, which replaced/enlarged a Carolingian S-D, then yes, it was "always" an abbatiale. right. well, ever since the monks were introduced. and, architecturally speaking, always will be, saecula saeculorum. and the "original" or Dagobertan structure may have also been a "basilica" (either in the sense that some ancient writer might have understood that term and used it to describe the building/church, or in the much more strictly and narrowly defined architectural sense of the term in current usage among Art Hysterians). the latter question we cannot know for certain, since we certainly cannot reconstruct that building's elevation, nor even, perhaps, its ground plan with certainty (knowledge of both of which aspects are, to my mind, necessary for the application of such an architectural designation). >Depends on what the meaning of "is" is or of what "was" is ;-))) well, i don't know as to how i would go *that* far. it depends more on what the sense of "basilica" was. christopher p.s. out of consideration to some of our long-suffering list collegues who might be paying for their bandwidth by the minute, it's probably not a good idea to reproduce the *whole* of my already tediously long posts --already too lengthy for some to finish, i'm told-- in response to just a part of them. i'm sure Moma George would agree. ********************************************************************** To join the list, send the message: join medieval-religion YOUR NAME to: [log in to unmask] To send a message to the list, address it to: [log in to unmask] To leave the list, send the message: leave medieval-religion to: [log in to unmask] In order to report problems or to contact the list's owners, write to: [log in to unmask] For further information, visit our web site: http://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/lists/medieval-religion.html